Difference between revisions of "Talk:WHFRP Reboot"

Revision as of 11:45, 21 August 2007

Reboot Chat Archive

--Edmiao 12:01, 13 August 2007 (MST) Matt explained the spiritual advance thing better last friday. My current understanding is that it is a way for him to hook into characters and to try to hook the characters together. It explicitly states what kind of things the character is interested in, which allows the GM to plan events and plotlines that are of interest to the character. I'm behind this idea 100% now.

I'm also fine with 1 or 0 fate points, with most replaced by the SA specific rerolls. would also encourage the ability to use SA points as spritual advance specific gemini-esque storytelling points.

I'm 100% against using SA as a mechanism to get xp, and also against bonus xp in general.

--Gdaze 14:39, 13 August 2007 (MST) I don't like the 1 or 0 fate points. I would perfer at least 2, or give humans one more then non-humans. There needs to be some benefit to play a human.

I'm okay with use SA for rerolls but I still don't think it is that great of a system for a group that already roleplays well. Guess I don't get how you can just switch it around, also seems like a lot of work to do just so you can get a few re-rolls.

Yeah, I don't think it should be used as EXP.

--Matts 14:43, 13 August 2007 (MST)Just so you know, I'm not going to be tweaking the system as I have it planned until we try it out; if it doesn't work I'll tweak it. Feel free to discuss to your heart's content, but don't expect me to be sweating things until we actually test the system out.

--Gdaze -- Well MAYBE I'm BORED at work.

--Matts 15:31, 13 August 2007 (MST)I'm not saying don't talk, cause lord knows I will. I'm just saying that if you're expecting results you may have to switch, uh, products.

--Matts 12:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)To throw some fuel on the fire about XP:

There's really two axes for reward in an RPG like this: temporal rewards within the game (money, power, gear, etc) and experience. Personally, I think rewards should be for characters who contribute to the story and contribute to a fun session, because those are the things I personally want at my gaming sessions.

The tricky bit is that there's two things such an approach can lead to and that I want to avoid: 1) people angry because they feel left behind or indirectly punished if they don't get the reward, and 2) people gunning only for the reward at the exclusion of all else.

I like to think the SA system does a decent job of tying a gamist approach (the desire to win/advance) with a narrativist approach (because in order to win/advance you need to progress along a narrative arc). Maybe it's not the best solution, but I'm not scrapping it and going back to WFRP's Fate points and 100 xp/session because that leaves the issue totally unadressed. Whatever mechanic replaces SA (if any) needs to have a component that requires story participation.

--Gdaze 12:41, 14 August 2007 (MST) FIRE!

I don't mind bonus exp, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. RPing isn't just about telling a story, it is about having FUN telling that story. Nobody wants to see their character fall behind, and in a game like this it will become very apparent. Also if you think rewards should only go to players who contribute to the story and to a fun session it is too easy to play favorites. What if someone plays a silent type warrior who doesn't help in the decision making process but kicks butt when it is time for that? Do you give him extra exp cause "he kicked a lot of ass"?

I actually see the SA system as having a huge flaw because everyone can take any goal, at any time, and will switch often to maximize exp. Not saying we would, but if abuse is possible, then it just makes extra work. The way the exp system is set up now is quite nice, even, and not prone to abuse.

Another example... We are going to be talking a lot. Ed's character really isn't much of a talker, in fact I hope we keep him away from negotiations for the most part. My guy is a huge talker and is going to dominate these kinds of areas. Should I get more exp then him? I don't think so.

What it comes down to is this. Instead of having to worry about if I'm going to get an advance or not, I'd rather concentrate on playing and having fun not worrying about if I'm filling out my SA gauge. I mean the GM has so many things to keep track of, putting this task to the players plus you just seems like way too much work without a whole lot of benefit. I mean look how good we did last time with no SA.

Uneven distribution of exp is going to cause jealously among players, which is going to lead to un-happy players. I don’t’ mind small bonuses like last time… maybe a 25-30 depending on what you do (none of that 24 stuff… that is just mean). Or give a bonus if you fill out your SA meter (like +25 or summin’).

--Matts 14:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)So I have to approve changes made to your SA; it'll be pretty quickly apparent if someone is trying to game the system.

What the SA do is allow YOU to define the story that you'd have fun telling, and advance according to that. I don't like a "good roleplaying" bonus because that's a very subjective measure. You're totally right that there's more to good roleplaying than talking. With SA you define what "good roleplaying" means to your character.

--Edmiao 14:55, 14 August 2007 (MST) ditto gabe's comments completely.

--Matts 15:14, 14 August 2007 (MST)XP right now is basically just an indication of how long we've been playing the game - it has no connection to how the game actually played out, and gives no incentive to try to make your character do interesting or dramatic or appropriate things. It implies no narrative, history, or anything else - it means that the mechanic of advancement, which is probably the biggest selling point of WFRP, is totally divorced from actual play. To me, that makes it at best superfluous and at worst a lethal distraction. I want people to be talking at least as much about the cool things that happened or will happen in the game as they do about how their next few advances are going to totally uber them out.

--Gdaze 15:21, 14 August 2007 (MST) Ahem *cleans off cell phone* Well, it seems your SA goal "Be a little bitch" has just been maxed out.

Gotta throw that in cause it is a forum dicussion. E WANK!

All that aside, I believe the SA is subject to subjectivity as well. I understand that SA is suppose to allow us to control the story but in the end it only gives us a very limited control of it... as it should be, but didn't fate points do this before? Take for example Graccus. Many times when Nat, or others, have played him they burn points on chasing tail. I would say this IS controling the story because you yield results in the areas you want to. Fate points work just like this, they allow you to change failures, hopefully, in areas you want to. All the SA system does is somewhat force you to state lofty ideals and morals that you can change on a whim. You can sure as heck bet that if I did have fate points I'd be spending them on perform re-rolls.

If you can't give it out as a bonus then don't. Or a neat way might be give the characters some sort of short term goal worth XX exp. Like I want to perform infront of a large group and wow them... if I end up doing that I get a bonus 25 exp. Otherwise I like the standard 100 xp per session with soemw ay of everything getting a bonus every now and then.

And yes, we do get exp regardless, but what seasson hasn't gone by with us doing nothing in WHF? We do what we want because we progress the story. If we only do things for exp, then we are only doing things for numbers and not the story. I don't really get the last part of you post though... about how you want people to talk about their advances. I mean we are already doing that.

One more thing, how are the non-human races being balanced out? Since the amount of fate points was one of these factors.

--Matts 15:32, 14 August 2007 (MST)I said I want people to talk about what happened more than they talk about their advances.

This isn't meant to railroad you, it's meant as a way to tie character advancement in with the story so that it actually means something beyond the numbers. I was pretty explicitly saying I don't like the 100xp per session. SA don't need to be lofty, but they define a goal, and progress to or completion of that goal is a story, and that's the whole point.

As for balance, the other races have lower caps on their SA, that's it.

--Gdaze But we do talk about the story quite a bit. I guess your trying to say its like "Remember when I nailed that violin drift and got the +5%?" something like that then? I dunno, its kinda hard to stop talking about advances in any way really, that is a charm of the system. I guess there could be a better way to dish out exp, I just don't like the idea of it being to whomever gets the most "time" during the seasson. And I really, really, really don't want to argue for why I should get exp... "This totally goes with my SA!"

So do non-humans still have to fill out all five to get exp? Are we even gonna use this system for exp?

As a side note, in the adventure supplement I got there is a priest of that spear and shield goddess who for 25g, will train you for two weeks and you get an advance as long as it is along the combat line. INSANE!

--Edmiao 16:53, 14 August 2007 (MST) Really, do you want me to spend time thinking and talking about how I can advance the story line in any way appropriate? And thusly to try to make a good story? Because the SA linked to XP means that I will mostly think about how can I finagle my XP out of this session...let's see I can only do three things, so I'll just have to do them all night long. So we are in a diplomatic situation and my SA says Sneaky, Steals stuff, and Picks nose. So none of those apply so I guess I'll just meander off and do something sneaky. It does'nt fit into the plot, it doesn't make sense, but i needs to get my XP, so i sneak off and steal stuff for no apparent reason. Is that useful? I think it will be entertaining but from a comic and stupid standpoint.

I also agree with Gabe about GM favoritism and dominating personalities. I'll say that Matt was overly infatuated with Anjou last game. I thought his antics were silly and that there was no way that wine merchants were such stupid fucks as to get hoodwinked by a teenager because he had a french accent. But Matt liked it and it was funny and comical, so whatever. Under SA, Ben gets extra XP for amusing the GM (which was probably true last time also). Ben has a strong and outgoing personality, so he also tends to get a decent amount of action in while Deiter likes to sit back and tries to roleplay the characters more intimately, which means holding his tongue if he is not present. Under the SA linked XP system, over time Ben gets 10 more advances than Deiter and if I were Deiter, i would resent that badly.

I would also like to reiterate my previous argument that we want to encourage everyone to show up. Linking XP to attendance makes the game less fun for low attendees. Do you ever want Nate to come back to the group? I enjoy the occasional Nate appearances. Shall we insist that he play a level one character while we are all in advanced classes? That's silly in my book.

As I have said before, these criticisms are relevant to games where the majority of character points come from XP and not important in games where XP is a minor aspect of the character's traits.

--Matts 17:26, 14 August 2007 (MST)I don't think I dealt with Anjou that appropriately, and I'm determined to make more of an effort at gm fundamentals, ie, making sure everyone has equal time, and trying to keep people together rather than off on their own ditties.

I'm not trying to slow down your advancement. I'm not trying (in fact am determined to avoid) playing favorites. I'm not saying that if you don't attend you'll be heavily penalized or that I won't introduce catch-up mechanisms. If a player falls behind it's at least partly (probably mostly) my fault for not drawing them into the game. It's still a two-way street though: if I'm making the effort to get everyone involved, and the game still turns into it's-not-my-turn-i'll-read-some-comics, then I'm not gonna lose sleep over a slower rate of advancement. It's my responsibility to make sure everyone gets the same number of shots at SA as everyone else, and I'll tell you right now, you can talk my ear off but unless it's something super-fantastic like sacrificing your character for NPC Bob, if you're outstripping everyone else, you're not getting more shots at SA.

I'm not interested in running Career Advance Fantasy Roleplay. I like the system. I like the way career advancement works. But if ultimately everyone's individual takeaway from the game is "I got to Champion", then I'll be really crushed. Either XP fits integrally into play and how we make decisions and how the game flows, or it's a distraction.

--Gdaze 08:49, 15 August 2007 (MST) You know though, Robert would have totally been filling out his SA meter, haha! Lets see... hates self, loose self in fighting, take out anger on others, classic. Actually come to think of it Robert is one of my favorite characters besides Sarah. Although I'm really liking my current.

Anyway, we know you aren't trying to slow down the advancement, but have some faith in us. We aren't all trying to make it to champion. We most likely aren't even going to play that long... Although I really WOULD like to stick with this for awhile. Anyway, we aren't just going to think "Wow I got to Champion". Did we think that last time? No, people talked just as much about what their characters did then the advancments. But trying to phase out the goal of reaching a career altogether is kinda crazy. The career advance is a part of the game, and one we all like, I think so anyway. We will take away a lot more then "I reach High Wizard" or something like that.

I would say the SA method for EXP does not fit integrally into the system. If anything I think it will be quite a distraction, like the examples Ed put in. Although like you said you want to give all the characters changes to fill out their SA, that seems a bit much to me. Its like oh... another example to be sneaky! Granted we should have chances to do what we are good at but I think the players... ah forget that I don't know where I'm going with that.

G'ah drank a No fear and had a kripsy crap donut at work... I'm so over sugered.

I mean we are willing to give the SA system a try, but at the same time what the characters want from the game is fairly important too. I like to know that I can get exp for just playing instead of having a bunch of odd disjointed goals.

--Gdaze 11:18, 17 August 2007 (MST) So since Fridays go SO fracking slow, I'm gonna write a quick overview of my quick glance at the Skaven book I got for WHFRP.

It is actually a pretty neat book although it would of had a lot more information. Also the way the information is laid out is sometimes very odd... for example putting in the mutation charts for their warpstone experiments on monsters AFTER the section on Skaven career advancements. Also it has way too many of the little blurps from random citizens. Its like we get it... people don't think they exist but some do.

The thing that really annoies me is that some of the rules are not fleshed out at all. Like the Warpstone gattling cannon... it just says it can fire all of its shots at once. Any rules for how to handle that? Like what does spraying an area do? Nope. Just that it has 10 rounds and takes one full round to reload. Out of all the new weapons I think it actually has one of the shortest sections...

It becomes even more vauge when dealing with warpstone.

It does have some invention rules for making gadets which I really think they should have made aviable in other books for non-skaven inventions, to make the engeneeir career seem more like one.

I do like a lot of the weapons in the book for the skaven though, although odd their are no new poisons it seems. Also the section on Skaven carrers is kinda neat if someone wanted to play a Skaven adventure or flesh out his leet enemies a bit more.

--Dieter the Bold 23:44, 17 August 2007 (MST) So, with my starting Talents and Free Advance, the 1200 XP allows me to entirely fill out Barger-Surgeon, plus on advance to move into Physician. So, can I start with 4 Healing Draughts (I start with Trade (Apothecary)) and Trade Tools (Medical Instruments), so I can actually be a Physician when starting the game? Oh, and the rest of the guys want to know if it costs 100 XP to move from one career to another, or if it's free if you fill out the previous career? I'm pretty sure everyone has enough to just move to their second career either way. Also, what is the material cost of brewing healing draughts?

--Gdaze 02:40, 19 August 2007 (MST) I'm actually not into my next career just yet. Mostly cause I want to pick up a few extra talents and skills. Like sleight of hand and ride. So we are suppose to have 13 advances total right, counting our free? We just wanted to make sure of that... WE THE PEOPLE! I can't believe I missed that post about those advances...

--12.110.83.75 09:45, 21 August 2007 (MST)Yeah, the old house rule that if you fill out your career you can move into an exit free is still in effect. HOWEVER, you need to explain to me and the story how that happened; you didn't just flip a switch and become a physician - you studied for months under somebody, right? Who is that person, etc.

Actual play should have enough gaps so that if such mentor figures aren't available through the story, you should be able to make one up without too much difficulty.

So yes, dieter, you would be able to be a Physician.