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| − | --[[User:Dieterthebold|Dieter the Bold]] 10:54, 1 September 2007 (MST) So, I'll take complete blame for our current situation. I didn't really put a lot of thought into my responses during the interrogation, or my actions leading up to it. I don't know why I set myself up to be a law-abiding citizen when I'm the opposite, and we're all now in deep-shit because of it. So, sorry for grabbing everyone and dragging them over the rails. Still, huge opportunities here for us all to make things happen.
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 12:06, 1 September 2007 (MST) Well, i thought playing a crazy character would be pretty appropriate to the warhammer world, and would fit into a group that was less than law abiding. I mean, they have enitre rule sets and a stat about insanity in the rulebook. there's crazy people in warhammer. with the low fate points and not being all there, i figured he wouldn't last long, but i though more than one session! Anyway, he's now on the run from the law, and since the group seems intent on staying in this town, i guess Elrin will wander into the woods to become an NPC for a while. If you value a combat/stealth oriented character, we could try to work him back in somehow. maybe a lot of bribes?
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| − | otherwise i'm making a new character, and i want to make something different, so likely a Charlatan or Innkeeper or Merchant. Does the group have any pereference among these? This may leave us with a distinct lack of combat characters. For Charlatan I was considering Entertainer --> Charlatan (comparing rogue and entertainer, I like all the skills in entertainer vs luck in rogue) or, interestingly, Hedge wizard --> Charlatan. He would have petty magic and then a lot of lying and trickery skills. For those with the sorcery book, are there additional Petty Hedge spells? there's six in the main book, but if i'm to devote a whole career to it with no possible magic advancement it would be nice to have a few more, cus some of the six are worthless (protection from rain? unlucky charm that gives minus one to rolls on a d100??). I think unless there are some additional petty magic spells, then I will go with Entertainer --> Charlatan.
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| − | what is the group motive here? we seem pretty goody two shoes to be a smuggling band. now we're commissioned by the watch to solve a murder of a guy who we only knew for a few weeks? how in the world did we go from the idea of a cutthroat smuggling band with no conscience to law abiding citizens that are afraid to cut the throat of a bandit and won't take a minute to loot bodies of fallen victims? what good outlaw leaves perfectly healthy weapons on the ground and doesn't run down and slaughter those who attack them? I'm wondering if i should make a smuggler/liar/cheater or a city watch/noble/law abiding citizen?
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 18:15, 1 September 2007 (MST)I think Ed set this whole situation up for an excuse to put Hi-ho Silver! Away! on the wiki.
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| − | I would reccomend a combat character because there aren't any in the group and it's good to keep options open. I'd reccomend more of an urban combat character as that seems to be the way the group is trending and more of how I think I tend to skew my preparation; combat characters in warhammer aren't useless outside of a fight - you've got your Estalian Diestro with his Academic Knowledge science, you've got your Thug with Intimidate and Silent Move.
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| − | There's a lot of ground between merciless and insatiable killer and smuggler/liar/cheater. You don't need to push your character's morality all the way to one side or another. I've mentioned it before, but one of the primary themes in this game is "what is worth fighting for". The answer to that question doesn't need to be consistent. In my opinion, it's in the variations and exceptions that a character is found, not in the broad uncompromising stances. It's my intention to challenge your characters' morals whatever they are.
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| − | --[[User:67.40.199.78|67.40.199.78]] 22:18, 1 September 2007 (MST) what's worth fighting for? my horse.
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| − | Gabe here: First of all Ed, I think you really need to draw a line between what it is to follow the law and to break it. Just because we smuggle doesn't mean we will whole sale slaughter people. That is just stupid. We are criminals, but that doesn't mean we shout it out from the rooftops. And none of us said we were gonna kill everyone, we said if we NEED to we would kill people. Those guys had run away, so I didn't see any reason to kill them. We had a cart of tons of goods that I would assume would be worth more to us in the long run then some guys' swords.
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| − | Personally I think its kinda cheap to say we are perfectly law abiding citizens. Yes we will smuggle drugs, yes we will smuggle weapons, yes we somtimes may have to bump someone off. But evil does NOT equal just killing whomever looks at you wrong. That is just cartoony evil which we never claimed to be. If we just go around killing without thought there is no way we can continue to do a SNEAKY thing like smuggling. Smuggling is about making contacts, not killing. If you want to kill and loot I would suggest we become bandits.
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 12:31, 2 September 2007 (MST) Even law abiding merchants will kill bandits who accost them. It's just not good business to let them get away so they can ambush you again later in greater numbers. Killing bandits is an everyday occurance in the warhammer world, it's like eating breakfast. Elrin maybe was a bad idea for a character, but I think anyone would have gone back for their horse, how much do those cost, 80gold? I think this was pretty predictable, you'r a smuggler caught red handed. what do you do, turn yourself in to the authorities? I think not. make a run for it and try to salvage what you have. At any rate it was more smuggler appropriate than revealing where your buddies are hiding with the illegal goods.
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| − | As for my next character, who I hope will last at least two sessions, i'm not interested in making another combatant because the group is pretty much strictly avoiding combat as far as I can tell. So to fit in better, it'll be a Charlatan. we can hire mercenaries if we feel like we need protection and if we can afford it.
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| − | This game's gotten off to a fine start.
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| − | Here's a bit of confusion. as Bro and Dim are no longer accused of murder, haven't they admitted to being smugglers? should they be under arrest for that?
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 17:59, 2 September 2007 (MST)The internal mechanics of Kreutzhofen, which I have painstakingly crafted, are responsible for that curious circumstance.
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| − | So, I have a question: What can I as the GM do to try to keep people from peeling off from the group all the time? I know I personally get terminally bored as a player when the group is fractured, and I hate to see people not interested in the game.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 21:51, 2 September 2007 (MST)Also, Ed, if you're cool with it, I'd rather not give up on Elrin just yet. You spent a while making him, others spent a while integrating him into their backgrounds, and just because he's currently wanted for murder shouldn't put a damper on the game. Ultimately the goal is to make a cool story, and if my hastily constructed plot gets demolished and I have to go back to the drawing board, well then I think that's all right. You played your character like a nut, and now he's a dangerous nut. That's an interesting and important qualification.
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| − | That's not to say that the group's current predicament will be easy to get out of, but who said warhammer was supposed to be easy?
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] I think i'd rather leave that up to the other players. What i was hearing last time was that if Elrin is a nut and especially if he's a dangerous nut, then the other characters would not hesitate to cut him adrift. So I ask the other players: do you value someone skilled in stealth and combat enough to put up with someone who is a nut? I think the problem is that, as usual, there is minimal or no feeling of loyalty/bond to tie the characters together enough for them to put themselves into some amount of trouble to help out Elrin. Part of my concept with playing Elrin was that he would need some guidance and would be less interested in the actual plot (my typical character cannot escape the scientist in me who wants to investigate plotlines). Elrin, I hoped, would develop more of an inner dialog and/or just create interesting scenarios because of his little problems. However, what I failed to realize is that it takes some putting up with by the other characters, and there is not enough of a hook to make that happen.
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| − | As to why the characters split up: it was actually integral to the way the plot was set up. we were to hide the cart in a barn, and then contact our dude if there was no one at the barn. of course we would split up to both make contact and guard the barn. unfortunately, making contact and town exploration turned out to make up 75% of the night session. That was a plot problem that split the group.
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| − | However, the bigger problem is the lack of hook in the group. Elrin was injured pretty badly, so it seemed appropriate for him to hide and rest for the night, which makes for a dull session when the session only lasts one night in game time. Characters get injured in warhammer, and healing can be slow sometimes. The fix for that problem would be a better hook between characters so that others actually care if the injured are bleeding to death under a bale of hay, and once stabilized would actually care if he were left to spend the night hiding under said hay. We left the goods alone with Jason's NPC and Elrin. Would you expect a half dead person to take their normal watch shift guarding smuggled goods? The answer apparently is "yes". And I think that is wrong, and blame it on two things: lack of a good hook and lack of enough players.
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| − | Lack of players is going to be a problem in this game if we want to do combat. I think in recent games, we have fallen below critical mass several times, and that's when things get messed up. Last session was essentially a two man show with Dim and Bro, and it seems that things got pretty screwed up. It would have gone much better with elrin around, because I think you needed some sneakiness in the night rather than trying to convince the city watch that you beloned somewhere that you clearly did not. The last time we had a two man show Orentes and Aedil created the broken box scenario, which was a total disaster. The low player count is also going to derail combat situations, as I saw last session. Even with our four regular PCs, the group is ill prepared for any combat. We have a good archer, a mediocre knife thrower, a beginning magician and a medic. As I found last session, you need also a tank. So that was my bad in making the combatant of the group and making him an archer. Looking at elrin, I could make him more of a hand to hand with a little xp into WS and the purchase of some better armor. However, even 3 minions vs one tank might be pretty awful given WHFRP lethality. Thus my inclination to make a Charlatan who will fit into the group combat strategy: Flee! (which is one of Charlatan's talents).
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| − | Thus to sum up, I poll the other players. Do your characters value a combat/sneak character enough to put up with a little mental defect and enough to put yourselves into a significant amount of hassle in order to get him back to legal status?
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 11:00, 3 September 2007 (MST)Ed's questions still stand, but I'd prefer it if when characters were dependent on assistance to get back in the scene, if they demanded that assistance. I don't think it's appropriate to write yourself out of 80% of a session because you're injured.
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| − | --[[User:67.40.199.78|67.40.199.78]] 11:13, 3 September 2007 (MST) that would be better for group unity. but I'm not sure how it would have worked in this session. "please guys, just hang out here for the night instead of meeting your contact?" I don't think anyone would have agreed.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 17:13, 3 September 2007 (MST)Something I totally missed: Fortune points regenerate daily. So use em! Use em for conversation! Use em for extra actions! Use em to bring in new narrative elements a la gemini!
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| − | --[[User:67.40.199.78|67.40.199.78]] 20:16, 3 September 2007 (MST) daily in game time or per session? In looking through careers again, Highwayman looks awesome also and has some nice fellowship advances plus trick riding and combat. Maybe i can have my cake and eat it too. Oh, wait, i did that last night out of gabe's mom's.....
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]]-- Okay I have to chime in here again... It is good business to kill off every bandit? We are transporters... how is it good for business to continuelly put the items in question in danger? In the wild west did they stop the train, pour out, gun it out, and then keep moving? No, they kept the train running. Again, we aren't against killing, but since we owned them so badely why hunt down all of them? They got our message, don't mess with us.
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| − | And yes we do flee... why waste resources when we don't need to? But really I think the highway man might work. Heck, we might even BECOME bandits, something I wouldn't mind either.
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| − | I actually don't mind that Elrin killed so many officers although that is gonna screw us over if he is linked to us. But on the flip side, how are we to trust someone who has disappeared on us several times into the forest? Although we are loyal to Elrin, Elrin has never really stuck with us, and we have no reason to think he won't run off again. We offered Elrin healing too and he didn't take it. So as for leaving him alone, he seemed fine enough to refuse help.
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| − | And don't worry about this officer. Dementis has a plan that should get the watchman killed and or exported and leave us sitting pretty. He just needs a little bit more info which he plans on getting at the party. I think highway man would be awesome Ed. They have neat combat skills + social skills. Plus they use guns!
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| − | By the way, my brother rolled 4 10's this Saturday for damage... He did like 47 damage in one hit.
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| − | --[[User:Dieterthebold|Dieter the Bold]] 10:34, 4 September 2007 (MST)Personally I'm conflicted about characters like Elrin. On the one hand, they're quite realistic in settings like WarHamster and offer great role-playing opportunities for really rich scenes. On the other hand, I have a very low tolerance for nonrational people, (children esp.), and do I really want to spend my role-playing energy dealing with one kook character or large plots in which my character is enmeshed? Experience and proclivity indicate the latter of the two. Elrin would make an awesome addition in a book, adventure supplement, etc., but to be perfectly honest, he's just not something I'd want to deal with. I can see why Ed would make a character like that and applaud him for trying to create that kind of situation, I just don't think I have the personal energy/interest to back it up by playing Borobro as having a real hook with Elrin. And while we definitely need some more combat proficiency in our group, I'll admit to not being able to hack having intense interactions with Elrin. I could probably deal if there was a buffer between us, like Dementis or Igantius, but not alone. Still, we've never really worked with mooks before, so I think this would be a fine opportunity to actually have a cohort or group of NPCs we regularly employ for their combat skills. It would allow us to all play the characters we wanted while not setting ourselves up for massacres and give Matt an avenue for slipping us plot hooks and the like.<br>
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| − | As for the situation that happened last night, I think Elrin acted 100% normally. We're smugglers, he's wounded, he's frakking crazy, and a bunch of guards just showed up and tried to arrest him and confiscate his shit. All of this having been set-up by my lack of forethought. So, I'm down with Elrin staying, but Borobro would keep his direct interactions very limited. As for the combat discussion that keeps popping up, I think it's beating a dead horse. Killing opponents for teh lootz is a long and time-honored tradition of PCs and adventurers everywhere. Leaving no enemies alive to menace you in the future and establish fearsome reputations is also a good plan. The idea that we want to get the goods through any potential dangers first and foremost is also a completely valid point that I agree with. Difference in tactics, each valid. I don't think we need to take the discussion beyond there. Elrin had a horse, he could easily bring down all the remaining bandits, loot them and catch up. If we got jumped again down the line, we need to step up to the plate and not expect Elrin to be tank, scrapper and blaster all the time everywhere.
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 12:43, 4 September 2007 (MST) Thanks for that Deiter, I'm down with your second paragraph completely and the dead horse (gabe) is thoroughly beaten. Gabe, I must offer a correction: "We offered Elrin healing too and he didn't take it." is completely false. Elrin asked for help at the ambush site and you told him to get into the cart so we could leave. He tried to bandage himself and you pestered him to get on with it. he got into the cart moaning and wiped his blood all over the crates to clean his hands off and you ignored him. Hours later, we arrived at the barn and he tried to hide, was finally offered healing by Bro and accepted the offer without complaint. oh, wait he did complain a little about the taste, but that's normal.
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| − | Thanks D. for saying that you'll step up a bit more with the combat. If i am to go forward with a combatant it'll be fine to be the main guy, just not the ONLY guy. I realized I like combat and was looking forward to it, so maybe Charlatan would be the wrong choice, Highwayman better. Besides, Highwayman is a ridiculously powerful career.
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| − | As to Gabe's comments that Elrin is likely to disappear again. Back then he was employed by the circus to muck out the bear stalls. You can't really complain when the stable mucker decides to up and leave. it's not like they make you sign a 4 year contract. he is much saner now than when you last saw him. So much so that you did not even recognize him at first. He has actually been accompanying Ignotus for at least a year (although Ig has been conspicuously absent). It will actually be interesting when Ig shows up if Elrin is gone, because Elrin is Ignotus's link to the group currently. By the way, I intend on calling the characters Dim, Bro, and Ig. cus that's awesome.
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| − | Matt is pretty intereted in keeping Elrin around. But, so far the consensus from Gabe and Deiter is that you are not interested in interacting with Elrin and would rather focus on plotlines. Doesn't seem like you can be convinced to change your mind. One point, despite his body count thus far, (which I think was situationally appropriate for any smuggler, as Deiter agreed above) he's not blood thirsty, just lacks a moral compas. I can retool him to give him a moral compass if you want to keep him around; I have no problem with minor personality mods.
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| − | --[[User:Dieterthebold|Dieter the Bold]] 13:09, 4 September 2007 (MST) Elrin didn't get healing for three reasons: 1) previously mentioned issues with personal interactions, 2) Borobro was so not paying attention to anything besides getting the cart the hell out of there and not getting hit by arrows, 3) professional offense at Elrin trying to do it himself and not coming to Borobro first. I mean, the man's sitting on poultices, healing potions and a Surgery enhanced healing skill. Want to do it yourself? Knock yourself out, but don't come whining to me when you botch it up.<br>
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| − | It's good that Elrin is acting more sane than before and hopefully with Ben actually playing things will be glued a little tighter together. Ben and I have a long relationship planned into our backgrounds, but it didn't really come out or get worked out due to his absence from any of the sessions, and me not being comfortable enough with the set-up to be all, "Oh, you know Ignotus, too? How nice". <br>
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| − | Finally, as for the moral thing, I think I'm the only one creating an issue with this, and it's not intentional. I'm totally fine with people lacking a moral compass. The only thing I'd push to avoid is cruelty. And I mean mean, spiteful cruelty, like kicking people when they're down, beating on 'em just 'cause you're bored. Shit like that. Which I don't see anyone in the group actually being prone to. I'm just so used to other characters doing crazy shit that, in my opinion, gets us fucked worse than simply taking the straight route that I went all law-abiding when the whole murder wrap went down. And then I compounded my error by leading them to our smuggling location and shit. So, to put it all quite plainly: kill, steal, lie and cheat all you want. Borobro doesn't have issues with this unless it's taking candy from babies, beating old ladies to death on whims or crap like that. I need to get in a more selfish mindset for playing my character. So go ahead and blame me for any sense of law-abiding or moral guide that's crept into the game. I blame myself already.
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]]-- Wait wait... are you telling me why my character should trust Elrin? My character did all kinds of horrible jobs but didn't run away. I'm saying from my guy's view, you run off a lot. He has no real reason to believe he'd stay around, ya know? Stopping in the middle of battle to bandage is just dangerous, least dem thought so. But like you said Ignatus was gonna be Elrin's link to the group but so far we just kinda use his house... And I forgot about the potion! So yus, my mistake about the healing.
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| − | I mean you could just keep playing your guy. But I kinda mirror what dieter said earlier, just prepare to have the character be somewhat outcasted... which he is anyway??? I dunno. I don't wanna tell you what to play and what not to play. I mean that is kinda an ass thing to do...
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| − | And you should totally call us those names.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 13:54, 4 September 2007 (MST)I don't want Elrin gone, first because it sets a bad example of just rolling a new character when yours hits the shit, and second, because I want this game to start off right. I think Ed and I have come up with a good route to making the character more fun for everyone, and the specific "your group needs a tanky fighting dude, i'll make one!" mentality bothers me quite a bit. A big part of warhammer is making do with what you have.
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| − | As far as these "personal issues" go, to me they're a gold mine for future interactions, and I'd be remiss if I didn't push the same buttons. The plot is actually coming along okay and I wouldn't say anyone's really 'jumped the rails' at all.
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| − | That said, it's not going to be easy to clear Elrin's name and by association everyone else's. What isn't appropriate is railing at Ed for getting the group into shit - the point of the game is to get into shit and then get yourselves out. This isn't a "Grim World of Picturesque Pleasureboating".
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| − | Finally - everyone needs to accept that people came to the group for their own reasons. Dementis may think smuggling means transport; Elrin may think (I know he doesn't, bear with me) that it means the exultant slaughter of all who oppose, and Borobro may just see it as the means to a vast network of information. The facts are that you get something from A to B without paying taxes or getting inspected and that's really all we can expect the group to have in common right now. '''For the first part of this campaign, you're all going to need to give each other the benefit of the doubt rather than hew relentlessly to your own character's narrative agenda'''. A group dynamic is shaped over sessions, not born from the cracked-open head of zeus, and is born of group interactions. What I really like about Elrin is that his story invites contributions from the other players, and that sets off the little "collaborative narration" bell in my head, and then I start drooling and panting and I call up Gabe's mom...
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 14:15, 4 September 2007 (MST) Just have to point out the inconsistencies. Deiter, my recollection was that Elrin did ask for help after the battle and the response was "no, get in the cart, we're leaving". Even if that recollection was wrong, i am kind of suprised that pride would stop a doctor from volunteering to help a mentally unbalanced dying man who was trying to bandage his own bleeding wounds. Instead Bro sat and watched him do it and do it wrong for five minutes. Wasn't really getting the cart going anywhere faster, now was it?
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| − | little wiki blunder there, all better now
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| − | Gabe, you point out what I was saying: our hook thus far is poor. thus Dim doesn't trust Elrin. we should strive to improve it.
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| − | --[[User:Dieterthebold|Dieter the Bold]] 14:36, 4 September 2007 (MST) I consider the healing discussion done (since we're not getting anywhere constructive with it), but I'll drop a personal dirty secret on ya'll: Dieter hates himself the retarded. Call me shallow, callous, bad-man if you like, but I can't stand 'em. I have a nephew who's pretty high up on the autism scale. 30 seconds into him coming into the room and acting all retarded I'm suppressing the urge to smother him in his sleep. And he's related to me. So, I 100% agree that Elrin offers golden role-playing opportunities and I support that, but I has serious issues actually making it work in practice. I also agree with everything Matt says.
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 14:53, 4 September 2007 (MST) did you just call yourself retarded?
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]]-- Hey, I put a shield on you! But dude, you guy acts like a child, we treat him like one, simple as that.
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| − | Although how cool would it be if Elrin jumped through the window of the party and starting hacking people apart? I for one would love it.
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| − | I dunno about group goals being only built over the gaming seasson. It is nice to have some goals and reach them. Otherwise it feels like being pointed everywhere and told what to do.
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| − | That being said, I'm going to post a conversation page for our plan to rid us of this cop and make good with the powers that be.
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| − | Yeah the way he put that makes him so retarded...
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] he would only do that if you asked him to. which is one nice thing about having a maleable person around, you can convince him to do things quite easily. who else would have responded instantly to your "shoot him". And deiter, it was never my intention to play him as mentally retarded. I think I actually did play him as slightly mentally retarded, though, which was wrong. characters need to be played a bit maybe to find their groove. he's actually supposed to be quite intelligent, he just hears voices and is slightly insane. If he continues in the game, i will need to adjust his gameplay accordingly to make him intellegent, but his opinions and experiences will be altered by things which are not there. Like I said, difficult character to play. I'm going to play him for at least one more session and see what you all think of him upon better exposure. You actually only saw him for what, one hour of the session before we split up?
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| − | --[[User:Maiasdaddy|Justin]] 01:02, 5 September 2007 (MST) Hello all! Lively discussion you have going here. To answer a technical question that wasn't answered before, according to the book, Fortune Points regen after a 24 hr period. I've been playing it that if the characters actually sleep they are regen'd the next morning but if they don't sleep for whatever reason it is 1 day.
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| − | --[[User:Dieterthebold|Dieter the Bold]] 03:30, 5 September 2007 (MST) Hey Justin, thanks for the help! Feel free to drop any other bits of wisdom anytime.<br>
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| − | Ed, the thing that really causes the most distress/energy-drain for me is lack of intelligent rationality. I'm not sure how to explain it without several confusing pages, so the gist of what I mean is that if I'm speaking to a simplistic child all the time, constantly trying to explain concepts that normal adults take for granted, I'm going to avoid that person like the plague. If there's some rationality to your irrationality and Elrin helped Borobro understand that, it would be a lot less stressful interacting with him. Say, for example, you constantly hear voices telling you to do shit. If you're able to communicate what those voices are telling you, so in a delicate situation Borobro can simply straight up ask you, "What are you hearing? What are you seeing?", get an intelligent answer, and then be able to understand when Borobro communicates what he needs, I can totally deal with that. While crazy's crazy, if the voices seem to be interested in only getting shiny things, then at least that's some kind of understandable structure to communicate within. We can use that to motivate Elrin and watch out for possible distractions based on that. Of course, this is WarHammer, and even though I am a physician, there's no such thing as psychology and the like, so we can't get too detailed in working out the insanity and how to work around it. But so long as I'm not feeling like you're some whimsical child (i.e., unreliable and illogical), then I can deal. And you are quite right, we interacted with you for all of an hour, and then I fucked things up and got you into a bad situation. So, I certainly do look forward to trying to right things up a bit on Friday.
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