Talk:The Future of Gaming!!

--Dieter the Bold 19:01, 13 January 2010 (MST) PA is obviously a great setting for this. Fallout is a really fun world and it's already familiar. (Everyone embraces nuclear technology, it advances to where it's running cars and cola machines. The US & China kick-off WWIII and it's all a radioactive wasteland with ruins, deadly mutants (animal & human), slavers and religious zealots. Culture ended in a stable 1950s form.) The only serious modifications I see this one needing are the NPCs. They're a huge part of Fallout, but sandbox gaming requires minimal NPC existence and interaction.
Scifi would be a really fun one, except some kind of arrangement would have to be made in terms of transportation.

--Gdaze 22:09, 13 January 2010 (MST) I figured you could set up the PA game like the West Marches. That is, the characters are in a stable town, and they set out in a certain direction(s) from there. Biggest thing here is human enemies. The orgianl game had zero of them besides undead, here you wouldn't have that. Although bandits are pretty much monsters in Fallout. The only problem I see in Fallout is that everyone would know how the world ended, for the most part. Of course there are tons of interesting things to uncover (just like in the video game). I thought it might be neat if the characters were working for, or are part of, The Brotherhood of Steel. With their objective of fidning lost technology, it could really work. However I think in the end the characters need to be motivated by the loot THEY find. But bringing stuff back to help the Brotherhood makes sense too.

Sci-Fi I thought a lot about. Biggest problems I see are transportation, and sattalite mapping.

--Matts 22:15, 13 January 2010 (MST)Ok, I really hate to be this irresponsible, but for some reason recently I've needed an outlet, and I cooked up PAPunk. I was hoping to call in a few buddies who aren't regulars into a group for this, in addition to our steady Corps. I apologize, because I'm really not a great voice of stability or reliability. But on the other hand, I don't apologize, because I shouldn't apologize about something I do for fun.

JASON: I think you might be jumping behind this idea a bit quickly. Without lots of NPCs to interact with and some kind of good plot, you are basically playing a board game with silly rules and no winner. But it does have an excellent message I think you should embrace, and it makes a lot of sense for you guys.

The key to serial gaming is making sure that all of the characters are always around. The obvious ones are 'lost in space' (BSG, Voyager etc), 'isolated outpost' (DS9, or even an island somewhere in a fantasy setting) or even a CSI/Law and Order type serial (characters are agents in an organization, whoever shows up is assigned to the current case).

Sci-Fi works great for those, but its not the only choice. How about 20's FBI gangbusters? Dr Who type time police? Low fantasy church enforcers (Name of the Rose...a really cool idea and rarely explored)? Or even supernatural investigators, which can be done in ANY genre.

Dont throw out all of the cool stuff to embrace serialization. Things might need to be simplified, but if the GM is resourceful he could plan scenarios that could work for whatever characters show up.

BEN: I haven't weighed in on this issue. There are a number of reasons for this, but since it's clear that this is a Significant Issue of Substance and Meaning, I'll put in my two cents:
1.) Most of what was said in that article (although I only skimmed the beginning, in the interest of full disclosure) are things that have been said at least 3 times by Jason, Matt, and Myself. "sandbox style gaming, where you explore a world, and the players control the plot?" See Gemini, the PA game, my suggestion for a Ship game, and Matt's 2nd WFRP game. "open ended schedule, with flexibility about meeting times, attendance, etc?" I wrote about this months ago, and we've been discussing it recently for our own group. In short, I was glad to see these ideas in pring, but I don't see them as novel, especially as they were interpreted by Penny Arcade's Gabe (aka Mike Krahulik?). Furthermore, most of these ideas have been strongly rejected by our group: Gemini, the most sandbox of the sandbox, and Matt's 2nd WFRP, also very much in that vein, did not take long to get the thumbs down from the players. Secondly, per my maniphilosophesto, I like long form gaming. I'm invested in OAAAA and in Kingmakers. I've been invested in every game we play. I understand games end, but it is often a bitter disappointment to me when we prematurely axe a game, just as I'm really getting into it. I loved the 2nd WFRP game, where I had real "sand-boxy" things going on with Ignotus: that character was built to take advantage of a world sandbox, and I don't think anyone but me really enjoyed that fact. We just started a new game like 2 months ago, and another new one 2 months before that, and now we're going to start another new one? This segues into my last point, which is that Gabe has said that he really likes rapid turnover of games, especially when he GMs. A sandbox game probably takes 4-6 sessions just to develop any plot at all, for a heavy frontloading of GM work. I'm excited to see Dieter GM, and I love "sandbox" games: I will definitely make a character, but I can't make a strong commitment to such a game.

--Gdaze 01:57, 14 January 2010 (MST) Ben, moved your comment here!

--Gdaze 02:08, 14 January 2010 (MST) Um, I don't think the problem with Gemini was that it was sandbox, it was that the characters had no reason to work together. Also in Gemini the characters were constantly being over-shadowed by NPCs. In this game like he said, there are NO major NPCs, only the PCs. And the world is tough, you don't work together, you die. This means the GM never is allowed to save anyone. And it isn't entirly sandbox. True sandbox is horrible for RP. It means the players have to make up something to do, this game DOES have an overall goal, explore, map, and loot. Just do so how you see fit, no NPC saying "Take X to Y or else I'll off C!" I dunno if I like rapid turn-over of games, but I tend to not like games that run too long. I had to end Mass Effect because well, getting dumped and ending a 3 year relantionship is pretty tough.

And Jason, there is a plot, the characters discover what happened to the region. There are all kinds of RP style games out there, this is just one. I would say interactions with NPCs in town is pretty important, and would add a bit. But quite frankly, NPC mangement can be pretty tough. And you really don't want them stealing the show. Just because you RP an exploration game without people around, doesn't make it a "board game with silly rules". It just changes the game focus. In a space game where you explored anicent alien worlds, you aren't going to be talking to a bunch of people in that.

And in the end, this forces players to have to solve things. They can not just find a contact who knows it, or track down someone who is better then them to do it. This kind of game really puts everything on the players. I mean no offense, but every time in an RP where the players have to go find someone else who knows more then them... and it happens pretty often, its lame. It is just lame. What did the characters learn? Go find someone else who knows more? Beat up everything else? I dunno, I think this game has a lot of possibility.

--Dieter the Bold 13:30, 14 January 2010 (MST) Glad to see some discussions. I'll dive right in to some directed responses:
Jason: quite right that dropping plot and NPCs takes a lot out of the game. Serial adventures can certainly work and be fun. It's just not as interesting to me personally due to: time/effort strategies & gaming preferences.
.............Serial adventures would require prep work for each adventure and more hands on involvement due to a plot (PCs + plot = kaboom!). I'd prefer to spend a couple weeks coming up with a whole area for players to explore and then just turn them loose on it and keep track of progress, changing things as cool ideas or interactions are had at the sessions.
.............I'm the simulationst kind of gamer, so while "board-game with silly rules and no winner" does make a point, seeing players wander around my little creation and interacting with everything appeals to me. Plus, if everyone is truly on board with the concept of sandbox-gaming, entertaining and engaging RP opportunities can be created between the characters themselves.
Ben: At the risk of igniting controversy, I'm going to blame Gemini on the players. We fucked that one hard and bad. You are correct that it was designed as a sandbox, and we fucked it up. More could be said on the subject, but I don't want to and don't see any advantage in it.
As for the 2nd WHFRP, I think that was a sorta' NPC sandbox, in that the wilderness expanse was more the populace of the town than geography. And I would have preferred to keep playing along in it.
I would argue that we're evolving as a gaming group, by which I mean options earlier appear in a different light now (at least for me), and that after having read the West Marches articles, I can say I didn't honestly understand the earlier attempts being made for this kind of gaming. Now I do, and I think we're all being much more explicit in our discussions, wants and intentions, which I think provides better ground for a successful game.
Matt: fun looking little set-up. Just make sure you don't forget our invites. I still prefer playing over gaming.
In General: The point of the sandbox is to allow gaming without set commitment. "Got 2 friends who want to (and can) game at the same time & place? Call up the GM and get going." It also allows a larger group to be active without all crowding the table at the same time. Matt can invite some friends, Gabe & I can invite friends, but we'll only run groups of a small size. Everyone (including GMs) can get their gaming fixes as much as they want on their own terms. And you can select your own gaming partners.
As a potential GM, I'm attracted to the ability to frontload all the work into creating the world and then just sit back and let things occur once the group shows up with minimal per-session prep. Plus see simulationist leanings in my response to Jason.
What I'd prefer is the group we have continue with awesome & regularly scheduled OAAAA and WHFRP games. That not possible, I'd like to maximize my chances to game without having to go out and join other groups. I also have a hard time jumping back into large plots after extended absences, but if the group really wanted to, I could just get my regular gaming fixes with other groups and then get in the occasional OAAAA and WHFRP sessions when the stars align.