Talk:BAbEl

Ed. Mmm. Interesting. When was the year of aug 21 where books older than that survived? That would set the tech level sort of. And if it was like 1900 AD there would be almost no books to find. Probably all the old book collectors would house the pre 1900 with the post and all would burn together. I presume all computers got erased too.

--Brandon 22:59, 24 August 2010 (MST) Thanks Ed. Good questions. The year of Aug. 21 is the same year the Burning started (2251). Basically, the "cut-off" date is about 3 weeks before the beginning of the Burning. I'm not set on that exact year or anything, but I do want there to be the possibility of quite high tech stuff. But, exactly as you say, a lot of things that were older than the cut-off got lost because they were stored nearby to post-cut off books, etc. And a large percentage of high-tech electronics, included pretty much all computers, were hosed. There is still room,though, for very complicated syntactical structures (and here the line gets tricky, leaving room for a lot of in-game mystery and debate). And I definitely want there to be some tech that still works even though people are pretty sure that it should have burnt. Handling any tech like this is very tricky though, as entering any new semantic content (heck, writing your name on the side of it) will start a fire. Many people learned on the day the Burning started, getting a rude awakening when they responded to their emails in the morning.

One theme that I want to use for Scholars could also be extended for people who want to use high-tech stuff. I envision that Scholars can make use of "scrolls" to cast powerful spells, where scrolls are just imperfect copies of old writings. So, for example, one might copy the first sentence of this paragraph as 'O_e the_e t_at _ wa_t . . .' Filling in the blanks would then complete the work and release the power. The trick, though, is that the code for filling in the letters can only be used one time, or known to only one person, because if two people know the code, it becomes a written language through which meaning can be deciphered, and will burn. Thus, each Scholar has his own unique code - known as a Beetle - that he is at great pains to hide (this gives rise to a popular phrase "keep your beetle in its box"). It can, clearly, become a serious problem if someone who wishes you ill discovers your Beetle.

Anyway, something like this could conceivably work for tech-savants, who could have their own unique programming code/language. But such a thing would be incredibly difficult and complicated to construct and hold in your head, because - for one thing - you couldn't write it down in any way that linked it to another language. No dictionaries for you!

Ben: I remain amazed what can go up here in 24 hours. J think this sounds like a phenomenal setting. I think there Are a lot of implications to this that will present themselves with some mastication. For instance: how do you teach kids to read or write? Even if you figured it out why would you? Those that could write would be seen as very dangerous. What about hieroglyphics and pictograms? What about art or other subjectively varied forms of semantics? If a single letter doesn't burn, what about words strung together randomly?

I'm sure we can all come up with many of these. Too bad you aren't in town Friday when I need to drive to Olympia, we could discuss. My other point at this time is that I think demons are too overt right now. The books burning thing is mysterious and scary. The demons seem out of place next to that. I think they should be more shadowy

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) I would love to be able to talk through this with you in a long car ride, but am afraid this will have to do (unless, of course, you want to drive with me and Kate and two cats from Seattle to Ontario). I'm glad you are excited by the setting, because I'm getting excited about it myself, and it's great to think things through with you all.

Anyway, you've anticipated some things that I was planning on posting (specifically about Art and Demons), so I will post some more sections to the main page instead of answering everything here. But here are a few quick responses:

- Teaching reading and writing would very very hard, especially to kids, because you would at least have to have access to some already written things (which are rare), and you couldn't read them aloud (or they would become even more rare). But you could teach alphabets, and teach via phonics. Everything would just have to basically done via memorization and vocal repetition. More importantly, as you mention, there would be very little reason to teach most people to read. The risk and effort wouldn't be worth it for most, even though those who could write would be powerful. At the moment, I am imagining that the vast majority of people are totally illiterate and are scared of the prospect. The only people actively trying to preserve the art of writing are Scholars (who are Mage-types) and maybe some historian-types.

- Words burn. Random strings of letters don't. I'll address the other related questions (Art/Pictograms, etc.) on the main page.

- I agree that the demon thing, as I've presented it so far (though I haven't said much about them yet), is too overt. I've toyed with the idea of not having them present at all, but I see some upsides that I'll discuss on the main page (and in response to Gabe's questions below). They definitely should have a very shadowy, rarely seen presence, if any.

--Gdaze 15:41, 24 August 2010 (MST) I like the idea, I've often wanted to play a game where voice had power. But... Have you thought of these situtions?

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) Good thoughts, Gabe. I'll respond below each question.

1. If you write letters in the air, or in invisable ink, do they burn? Or do the letters actually have to be seen? If they don't have to be seen could you set up elebrate traps where by filling out one letter an entire building explodes? Or is it any complete word causes an explosion?

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) Letters by themselves don't burn (only syntax, no meaning). Words in the air do not burn, but invisible ink words do. Basically any permanent encoding causes the burning, so they don't have to be seen, just encoded. Any complete word burns, so it might be possible to set up an elaborate trap, but you'd likely have to fill in A LOT of letters, not just one. That's basically how Scrolls work, but on a smaller scale (see above).

2. So if you write on someone you can burn them?

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) Yup. But this is risky for a number of reasons, and if you can write you can probably do better things with that power than just burn people. (See Magic and Demons on the main page for more details.)

3. I take it nobody really suffers from being cold then? Can you just write something in the dirt and have it burst into flames? How long do the flames last?

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) Well, sort of. Yes, you can write something in dirt and it'll go up in flames, but the flames die out pretty quickly (a few seconds?) unless they were written on something flammable. But, again, there are risks associated with writing that I'll talk about on the main page.

4. Is this only in English, or all langauges, and is it langauge dependent, as in you could write something that is gibberish in English but a word in another?

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) All languages. If you accidentally write a word that is in another language, it'll go up in flames. Better stop scribbling those Kanji-like doodles.

Anyway just a few questions I'd have, cuz you know players will find crazy things to do if they can all create fire by just writing a word. It sounds really fun though.

--Brandon 22:14, 24 August 2010 (MST) Yeah, that's one reason why I think that there has to be a risk associated with the act of writing. Thanks for this, by the way. This is exactly the sort of input I need. Keep 'em coming if you think up more questions!

Ben: on iPhone must post at top. Re: numbers: can you use an abacus? What if you count on your fingers? Re: hieroglyphics since the stone doesn't burn, is this a way to write? Re: demons: what about unkown armies style? What if demons just look and act like scholars except without morals or limits? What if they were once scholars who readcaloud too much? The burning metaphor in regards to souls and minds is a little ham fisted but may be appropriate anyways.

--Brandon 13:24, 25 August 2010 (MST) Hmmmm. The abacus question is a nice one. Counting on your fingers is definitely ok, as it is basically just counting out loud with a mnemonic aid. I'm almost positive that that an abacus is ok, too, since there is a similar interpretive distance between the object and what it represents. You can definitely pile five stones and know that there are five there without any conflagration issues, and an abacus isn't too far off from that. That's a nice possibility, because it will allow for some modicum of trade, etc. It also allows for the possibility of currency; you could have a five dollar coin of a particular color/shape. It just couldn't have '5' or 'five' written on it.

Hieroglyphics, by my lights, are "language-y" enough to burn. But, as to your main point, words written in stone will burn enough so as to be rendered illegible. It's just that the whole stone won't necessarily catch fire (assuming that it's nonflammable stone). This goes for anything written on a non-flammable surface. You are left with vaguely word-like but utterly incomprehensible scorch marks.

I don't know Unknown Armies at all, but quick research leads me to believe that they way they treat Demons is very much like what I was imagining. They either look and act like humans/Scholars, or they possess human vessels (along the lines of the movie Fallen, or the T.V. show Supernatural), or maybe both are possible. I agree with you on the ham-fisted but maybe appropriate line. I think that the paradigm worry is that if you read aloud/write too much, you will "become" or be possessed by a Demon. This way they have a scary, intangible presence.

Edmiao let me help ya out with that post ben. Brandon, does that d10 burn? a single number 8, or a zero, or a circle, or the number 1 or a single vertical line | ?? easy symbol to teach if someone needs to start a fire.

Yes, the d10 burns (assuming the numbers created on it were after the "cut-off"). So does an '8' or a '0' or a '1'. A circle is interesting. I wasn't imagining that shapes would burns, but it's definitely hard to distinguish a '0' from a circle. My first thought is that multi-use symbols like circles would be special and finicky, which is probably appropriate. I think that a '|' is okay as well, but I'm on the fence about things like the common symbol for '5' where there are four vertical lines in a row with a diagonal line through them. I think that might fall under the abacus category, but I'm unsure.

Starting a fire is definitely easy. Dealing with the consequences of doing so might not be.

--Gdaze 11:46, 25 August 2010 (MST) I just thought that maybe some odd religion could develop around writing on people. Since it releases power? Like they think you get extra power if you do it on a human or something. Or some odd form of punishment for some insane group.

I also like your tie in with the Wizard of Earth Seas with the true name thingy.

This reminds me a lot of this other RPG I have but have never played, I'll post about it when I get home.

OH! And so what happens if you are writting a word that has another word in it? Like "landmark". Does it burst into flames after land? Does this mean people just can't really write that word? Or would you have to write it as l_ndm_rk? Guess that would make sense. But couldn't someone clearly take what that words means, thus it has meaning?

And thanks for posting an interesting RPG idea after you move, dick.

--Brandon 13:24, 25 August 2010 (MST) I definitely some group somewhere is going to be writing on people, and it's going to be horrible. Great idea for evil/insane antagonists.

I'm glad you like the true name stuff. I have to develop it further, and am looking forward to hearing about whatever game this reminds you of.

For the normal person, the word would start to burn as soon as you got to 'land', but I'm thinking that one of the abilities that Scholars can learn is to delay the burning process for a short time, which would allow them to write longer - and thus more powerful - words/phrases/sentences, etc. And yeah, you've got it right: l_andm_rk probably wouldn't work because your average person could read it and understand it, which is why Scholars have to be careful to use "beetles' - unique codes - that only they can decipher and that leave the written symbols indeterminate. It's a dangerous game, to be sure.

Finally, you're welcome, smoochieface.

Edmiao echoing gabe, yeah, dick. course when did i have time to play anyway these days. riffing off Gabes writing on people, what if you wrote something on someone, it burned and healed but the scar from the healing still was legible. lets say you write an 8 on some guy's arm and the scar from the burn looks like an 8, will it burst into flame again as soon as it is legible? if you put some flame retardant around the letter would it like burn a hole through his arm, cus that would be awesome. just imagine a cult of freaks with these perpetually burning scarifications.

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) My only comment about this is that Gabe and Ed are both sick, sick people.

--Gdaze 14:27, 25 August 2010 (MST) So does the fire just blaze on, or explode? And so do the words burn until nobody can read them? If someone were to chisel a word into a metal with an extremely high melting point, would the words just cotinue to burn until the entire metal structure melted? Or could you just put out the fire? by throwing something on a letter like a bunch of mud so that it is no longer a word? If you had a big enough piece of metal, couldn't you actually use it to write something? Is the magic tied to how long the words burn, thus making big slabs of metal very powerful?

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) It doesn't explode. It just burns, and yes the words burn (fairly quickly) into illegibility. Things like high melting point metal would take a bit longer to burn, but my thought at the moment is that WordFire (I need a better name for that) affects things quite differently than normal fire. So, even an high melting point object will burn quickly, at least long enough for the words to be illegible. It's just that the fire will not spread past the written upon point. I think that once the word starts burning, it continues until sated, but I haven't thought about that much. Finally, as I was thinking about it, the magic is tied more to the words/meanings than the medium, so it shouldn't make too much of a difference whether you right on paper or metal.

What happens if someone does sky writing? Also does it only affect things on Earth? What about the moon? Also... Let us say that you have your beetle. And you write ALL over the place in it. And then your beetle to one person, that would thus cause all your words to flame on? Like lets say you have a few people who agree that at the same time they will teach their beetle to someone, thus causing a huge flame storm.

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Sky writing is fine. The issue is permanent - or reasonably permanent - inscription. So, ephemeral things like sky writing (and the YMCA dance) should be fine. And yes, you probably could plan an elaborate flame storm as you mention. I dunno about the moon. No one has really made it up to the moon to check it out, what with the apocalypse and all.

I like the idea of making a building block grenade.

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Of course you do. But it wouldn't really explode, just catch on fire (which could, of course, cause an explosion).

Edmiao Mining just got a whole lot easier. wanna blow up some granite? just chisel a word into it, real big letters

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Not quite, 'cause it just burns, it doesn't blow up.

--Gdaze 16:14, 25 August 2010 (MST) Oh thats cute what you did with the name of this game, I see it now.

About reading, writing, giving off magic energy. Even if you are not the person who wrote the words, can you take power if someone else writes it and they don't know how to use the power that is released? If so, couldn't you just have a bunch of people writing words and add all that energy up together? Or do a bunch of signle words just never equal the power of a a book?

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Yes, I think that you probably could steal the power of someone else's writing. I like that idea, and it's kind of how I conceived of Demons working (they could suck up the released power). And, yes, I think that you could do some group stuff that could create a fair amount of power. But, as you anticipate, single words aren't as powerful as phrases/sentences/paragraphs/books. The more meaning is built, the more powers, so a sentence is more powerful than the mere combination of the power of each word. (That last sentence sounds like something out of a bad English textbook.)

What if a bunch of people did "human letter" poses? Would they burst into flames? What about objects under water? Or in the void of space (again, a space question)? So since a skull means "danger" or what not, does a symbol of a skull burn? What about an actual skull on a stick? Also since symbols that are widely known do burn, does this mean that if a group tries to make up a new symbol, it would evetually burn as well? How many people does it take to make a symbol burn worthy? Did the lane lines on roads burn up?

Also why would a cave painting of say, an ox, not burn up when it is clearly an ox, but the McD's symbol does? While you could no longer uses arrows, I'm assuming, could you have just like a stick pointing in a direction since it is not a written symbol? And if the stick doesn't burn, then why would say, letters made out of stone, burn? Is this annoying yet? This is a lot of fun to do.

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Again, "human letter" poses aren't inscriptions - they aren't really permanent - so I think that's fine. Objects underwater and in space/a vacuum would burn just fine. The "Semantic Fire" (is that a better term? not really.) is magical and doesn't behave like normal fire. Further, as I said on the main page, most pictures and symbols like skulls have meanings that are too indeterminate to burn. If a symbol's meaning gets very determinate, it seems like it burns. I think that I would leave it an in-game mystery as to how many people, etc. it actually takes to have a symbol cross the line. It would be something that people in the game-world would be constantly nervous about.

But that's basically the same explanation for the painting of an Ox. The meaning isn't fixed. It could represent a specific Ox, the concept 'Ox', someone's idea of an Ox, and a whole mess of other things. I might even look at it and think that it is a Buffalo. Words are different in that they represent more specifically, at least relative to the conventions of particular linguistic communities. So, even if words are in a certain way indeterminate, they are a whole lot more determinate than paintings. I use the McD's logo as an example of a symbol with VERY widespread and determinate meaning. The line is fuzzy, of course, which I think could actually be a fun device.

Lastly, arrows would be fine, I think, because they are indeterminate enough. An arrow might mean "go this way" or "north" or "greater than", but letters made out of stone would burn up until they were just big indecipherable burned stones. Also, lane lines are still there (no semantic content, just syntax).

Not annoying yet!!

Edmiao Gabe, you are awesome. "it's fun to stay at the Y...M...C...A<<<FOOOM>>> AAAIIEEE!!!!!"

--Gdaze 10:11, 26 August 2010 (MST) And don't take this the wrong way Brandon. I'm just trying to think how players would try to abuse the whole words burning thing. I've done a fair amount of world creation, none of it very good, but I've realized it is quite hard to make everything "make sense". This still sounds like an awesome game to play, we should Skype it.

--Brandon 11:25, 26 August 2010 (MST) Not at all! This exactly the sort of stuff I need to hear. I need to be pushed to think about scenarios that I probably wouldn't have otherwise. I think that there is a fair amount of fudge room to keep some in-game mystery, but I do want to try to make things as consistent as possible. And the only way to do that is by thinking of all sorts of contingencies. I much appreciate it. And, honestly, I think that doing something like this by Skype could actually work.

Gabe, what was that RPG that this reminded you of?

--Gdaze 11:39, 26 August 2010 (MST) http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Legacies-Players-Guide-RSP001/dp/0973565403/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Dark Legacies. Just that the priests use a power called "The Voice" to fuel their spells. Normal spell casting always causes corruption and you have to assemble the spells. Also any class can use spells, just some are better then others. There are super powerful spells as well that you have to collect ruins that are actually the shattered body of the head Demoness.

It is a pretty neat world but I'm not sure the D20 system works so well for it. It is also PA like. Overall it is pretty different then what you wrote here, but some of the themes seemed somewhat alike. It is a really neat world. And no problem, you have to take players like Ed into account, huk huk. Plus players in general will try crazy-ass shit. I was actually reading one of the 40k RPG books I just bought and it had great advice for GMs. Now I'm totally off subject, I really would rather be at home right now. And yeah, Skype might work? We should make it happen.