User talk:BenofZongo

--Edmiao 12:49, 21 January 2007 (MST) About the high fantasy complaint. The idea that it is impossible to suprise characters with monsters and that this is game killing does not hold true with me. Do characters need to be suprised or shocked by the form of their enemies? Take a modern cop drama like the one shot Ben did a few months ago. There were no suprises in the form of the enemies: mob goons, gang goons, governement goons. The interest arises from the drama in which said goons participate. In high fantasy, replace mob goons with goblins, gang goons with undead and govenment goons with dragons. In WHFRP Matt got some milage out of introducing Scaven and hiding magic, but at this point the only reason we would run from Scaven is if they outnumber us. The interest arises from the question "who is controlling the scaven and to what end?" Complaints regarding DnD are a separate issue, but i think as DnD is so dominant in the RPG Fantasy genre, that those complaints may taint the genre as a whole.

--Jason 13:51, 21 January 2007 (MST)Thats only one facet of what is so wrong with high fantasy as a genre. The examples you give are from games where the enemies were basically mundane. In the City of Tears, the enemy was just some normal doctor guy, of course what he was doing was a form of horror. Yet in a high fantasy genre, organ harvesting is still ho-hum. Wizards the world over use organs for spell foci. The skaven were a little unnerving, but in the end the characters shrugged it off as magic. The biggest problem with high fantasy is there is no consequence, its just a game of WoW. You die? No problem, we'll resurrect you. Gotta travel 10,000 miles today? We can teleport you. The thing I like least about all games is the monty haul aspect, which is utterly rampant. High fantasy at its core is about getting more gold and bigger magic items and then using those to go to the lair of bigger creatures to do it all again. It is basically a symphony of the ridiculous, and I cant suspend my disbelief for that. Whats left in the game is dice rolling, and the tactical aspect of roleplaying is lacking compared to games like clix or necromunda.

Its pretty clear that what I want from a game is almost diametrically opposed to what the rest of the group wants. I understand that, so I work within those confines so that we can all have a good time. I have considered taking a break from roleplaying for a while, and that would give you guys a good opportunity to play the high fantasy. Dont despair just yet.  :-)

--BenofZongo 14:10, 21 January 2007 (MST)Are those flaws inherent to the concept of a magic rich fantasy world, though? I agree that the typical delivery of high fantasy has the flaws of which you talk, but that doesn't mean that a given game has to. I don't want to run DnD, but I would kind of like to run a fantasy game where players can be lots of different races, lots of different classes, and where characters can actually have a shot at having some sort of spiffy piece of gear. Not a game-breaking one, but just something neat. Also, I'm not saying those flaws could definitely be avoided, just that I would be game for taking a shot at creating a game world in the "high fantasy" setting and seeing if it could avoid said flaws. Finally, it's only one idea on the table: Matt and I talked about this after game friday and we decided that in the circumstance that the Jin Dynasty game does not continue, each of us should come up with 5 ideas a piece: we'd present them all to the players, and people could vote/pick which one they wanted. Whoever's idea it was would GM (of course, if Ed wanted to throw ideas into the pot too, or anyone else for that matter, that would be cool) the next campaign.

--Edmiao 15:37, 21 January 2007 (MST) Granted that I am relatively new to role playing, and I am by no means advocating that fantasy is the way to go. Let me play devil's advocate. All the examples Jason gives above I don't see as integral to fantasy. Phat loot occurs in many games, for example in PA we get laser sights and kevlar armor or in Space Opera I remember uber rifles that were phat loot. Resurrect and global teleport are DnD but not required for fantasy. WHFRP is a "fantasy role play", does it have the same lack of appeal to you, Jason? In any event, if one player is very against fantasy for whatever reason (and simply "I don't like it" is a perfectly valid reason) then why bother to try to fix fantasy when there are so many other game types to be played.

--Jason 15:48, 21 January 2007 (MST)You and Ben both make the same, very valid, point here. There is no reason resurrection and teleportation need to be inherent to a genre. On the gear angle, any kind of gear that is regularly available to purchase, to me, is not phat l00tz. I dislike arms races, yet really must these things be in high fantasy? No. As with anything else, I will always listen to and consider ideas, even when it comes to high fantasy.

--BenofZongo 15:58, 21 January 2007 (MST)I think Ed makes a good point in that with so many other Genres out there, we might as well not bother. That being said, I just had the thought of including it as one of my 5 ideas, and I think I'll leave it there unless I come up with something better: I think its highly unlikely to get picked because it is such an overdone genre, and that's fine by me. Another strike against it is that we've been playing a LOT of fantasy: between WHFRP and the Jin dynasty people may be ready to pick up a good old fashioned lead thrower and blast some holes in people.

--Edmiao 19:31, 21 January 2007 (MST) I don't consider Jin Dynasty to be fantasy. It's more of a pseudo-historical period piece. No wizards, dragons, goblins or orcs. The laws of physics apply (ie no fireball spells or eye beams or magic night horses). The other races present are for a flavor that I thought could not be achieved by making all the 6 kingdoms asian and the outsiders white or black. Rather the 6 kindoms are human and the outsiders are humanoid.

--BenofZongo 21:24, 21 January 2007 (MST)I'd argue that the strong presence of powerful martial arts qualifies it as fantasy. Not necessarily european fantasy, but fantasy the way crouching tiger hidden dragon or hero are fantasy.

--Edmiao 22:54, 21 January 2007 (MST) you are correct, sir.

--Edmiao 00:16, 22 January 2007 (MST) As the Iliadic was before my time, could you give a brief descriptor?

--Dieter the Bold 14:07, 8 February 2007 (MST) I can definitely see where Jason is coming from, as while I'm interested in Far Future, I don't want Star Trek hand-waving science of whatever-the-hell I feel like with no consequences but what the GM pulls out of their ass. High Fantasy definitely has a tendancy to slide over into this, but I think it balances out by having such powers be freely available and often concentrated in the hands of powerful and far-reaching organizations. I'll admit to being totally biased though, and absolutely loving high fantasy, regardless of its failings. Ed, the Iliadic was basically a group traveling around and questing. Some people had greater focus in their quests, while others sorta' picked up what they could along the way. We were mainly in Egypt/North Africa, Middle Europe and Greece. We mainly fought similarly powered villains behind evil conspiracies, after sussing out who they were and fighting through their legions of goons. Two sessions of note: (1) Ben's sister playing Gabe's Egyptian Death Ninja and moving him up a level by good role-playing, (2) Stoning a woman to death for fucking a rhino-god and birthing a combat monster son and unstoppable herd of rhino mounts for super-heavy calvary. And for being a bitch.