Talk:WHFRP Reboot

--Matts 16:33, 31 July 2007 (MST)Cleaned up the old discussion.

Two things: First, the group should have a relatively common goal, or better yet, shouldn't neccesarily have a goal. It's my job as the GM to ensure that the plot hooks the group collectively and the characters individually. It's your job when making a character to make my job possible. If your goal is "Rule the world", or "Turn the moon into my balls", then you'd better have ready for me more attainable short-term mechanisms by which I can hook your character, and you'd also better accept that such a grand goal may be out of the scope of this campaign (may be). If need be, I'll reccomend some Spiritual Attributes that make sense for your character and also hook in to the plot, though, you're free to change those at any point.

But I've got little tolerance for in-group squabbles, and the Western Empire, dangerous a place as it is, doesn't allow much room for discord. Fair warning; adventurers adventure together because the world is a dangerous place. Successful (ie alive) adventurers come to some base level of understanding quickly, because to argue a point about honor with bandits bearing down on you is as good as a buy-one-get-one-free coupon to Morr.

Second, you're all smugglers, right? Well here's your starting point, at least the starting point for the prologue: Wissenland is a haven for smugglers; ships that leave tilea are invariably taxed the ports they put into, but the passes over the mountains between Tilea and Wissenland and the Border Princes are innumerable. It's difficult, but sometimes worth it, to bring goods through the mountains rather than by sea, and it's also easier to avoid customs posts.

Kreutzhofen is a small town that serves as something of a smuggler's clearinghouse; goods are often purchased from freelancers here, or stockpiled by major operators, before shipping them downriver to Nuln and the large markets there. Word is, to anyone who listens hard enough, that there's a man there named Gunter Golbsfahren, and he needs some help working his ferries.

Feel free to riff on that stuff if working for a guy named Golbsfahren doesn't sound like what you want to be doing at the start of the prologue.

--Edmiao 10:42, 30 July 2007 (MST) Having not recieved any return input, I pose again the question of what kind of dudes are we?

• smugglers for illicit goods: really bad stuff like drugs and chaos artifact or chaos magic supplies.
• smugglers for illicit goods: not bad stuff, for example religous supplies from non-altdorf approved religions.
• smugglers of legitimate items avoiding tarrifs and taxes: fine goods from araby that are hard to find and taxed heavily, rugs, spices, jewelry.....
• Robin Hoodish: the noble smuggler bringing in some necesities of life to sell to poor folks who can't afford the huge taxes placed by the empire. medical supplies and educational materials are taxed at huge rates in order to keep the peasantry suppressed, and the group smuggles these and sell them at more affordable prices.
• dirty dock hands who will work for any old smuggler or pirate like Gunter Golbsfahren who will pay us coin, we care not for anything but getting a gold coin at days end.

--Matts 17:42, 31 July 2007 (MST)Illicit goods are:

• books of heretical or dangerous knowledge
• seditious letters or texts
• heathen religious items
• chaos artifacts(Though you don't want to smuggle those, believe me...)
• weapons(to ship weapons is something reserved only for the Imperial military; most weapons are smithed on-site in a town)
• psychoactive drugs
• poisons
• strange or exotic livestock (ie, baby manticores, tigers, crocodiles, etc)
• raw gold

Licit goods that generally get smuggled through Wissenland to avoid tarrifs:

• Wines (tilean wines are valuable and highly taxed to Reikland wines favored amongst the Inner Empire's nobles)
• Cheeses
• tobacco
• other spirits
• books (books are generally subject to thorough inspection at a customs point; the time of the scribe must be compensated, and sometimes the closest scribe is a week's journey distant)
• jewelry
• textiles
• livestock,especially horses (traditionally, the best horse from every 10 is the tax on horses; this keeps the breeding stocks of the Imperial Equites replenished)

--Dieter the Bold 11:04, 1 August 2007 (MST) I vote no animals, peoples, poison or chaos artefacts. I think a primary focus on 'licit-but-avoiding-tarrifs' smuggling would be nice, with a little of the illicit thrown in when the money's too good. Drugs and weapons seem like a (relatively) safe thing, gold and books seem like they could really call down the heat. I'm not too worried about dealing with the fuzz, but the Inquisition (heretical books) and Imperial spies (gold, maybe weapons) are more than I want to be tangling with. So I'd vote we're either an independent crew that engages in some collective bargaining to establish ground rules with Golbfahren, or we don't ask questions but discourage Golbfahren from using us to move certain items.

--Matts 13:49, 1 August 2007 (MST)To be clear, then, you're voting for "Smuggling but with scruples"? What sorts of scruples?

--Gdaze 14:27, 1 August 2007 (MST) Okay with everything under Licit goods. Others I am okay with raw gold, poisons (just as long as I don't have to put one in my pocket), books of heretical or dangerous knowledge, and psychoactive drugs.

Weapons seem too troublesome.

That is ver I stand.

Editted: But if we are gonna do animals I might have to redo a few skills...

--BenofZongo 15:52, 1 August 2007 (MST)[[Ignotus Peverell]: As far as I am concerned, and given the times, I believe it perfectly acceptable to transport whatever goods fetch the best coin for the lowest risk and time invested: a cost-benefit analysis is in order, I think. Regardless. I place my skills and services at the disposal of the Three Rivers Trading Company, LLC (aka, us) for whatever business, mean or grandiose, dangerous or bland, that the shareholders (aka, us) deem appropriate.

--Dieter the Bold 20:08, 1 August 2007 (MST) To be clear, I don't mean smuggling with scruples. Now, my views are currently being influenced by this game I've been reading a lot of, (Fading Suns), but I was thinking more along the lines of, if we get caught, what shit gets us jail time, maybe some lashings vs. shit that gets you killed or burned at the stake. Avoiding taxes, it's no joke, but they generally wouldn't kill you for that shit. Poisons, heretical works and currency manipulation, that shit will get you put in the Dead Book. If people want to roll that way, I'm down. But I'm just saying, after rolling with the big leagues in Gemini (jumpship) and having to swim with sharks like that, I wouldn't mind a little lower key kinda' crime. At least to start with. If we find tariff avoidance a fun, but not quite profitable enough endeavor, I wouldn't be opposed to upgrading. Just a little leary of jumping into the deep end right from the get-go.

So, having said I'm not avoiding shit out of moral concerns, what kind of moral course do we want to lay out? Some old lady sees us sneaking our shit through: Do we off her or not? We find out some weapons or poison we've brought in is going to a criminal element about to take out a local lawman and run wild throughout a village: not our problem? Town a few stops up river is starving, but has no money: do we drop 'em some food, ignore or make slaves of 'em? In short, are we Han Solo or Boba Fett?

--BenofZongo 20:30, 1 August 2007 (MST)I'd just like to point out that just like in gemini, I would wager that "big shit" will find us, rather than us having to go look for it. This is not, at least not beyond the prologue, going to be a game having much to do with us smuggling horses, or cheese, or whatever: at least that's my impression. I still think it's worth deciding on a feel for the group, of course, so it's still worth discussing the stuff you point out. I'm open to either interpretation: my character concept allows for either.

--Gdaze Boba Fett is a bounty hunter, Han Solo is a smuggler... those are so different! *long winded argument about star wars* And thus in closing your gay.

As for that, m'eh. Gotta make a buck.

--Edmiao 09:30, 2 August 2007 (MST) I'm for smugglers with a conscience. Only because I think that if we are smugglers in it for money, only money and more money, then any (or most) plots that Matt tries to hook us into will fall apart because of the "not my problem" attitude. I guess there would be plots that such characters would be interested in: building a criminal empire and such. is that what we want to play? I agree with ben that it is unlikely (and I think it would get boring) if we spend much game time doing actual smuggling. Nevertheless, this discussion is important because we need to get the moral compass of the group.

--Matts 10:40, 2 August 2007 (MST)If you guys want this game to be about building a criminal empire, then that's information I need to know soon. But the pertinent question is exactly what Ed said: what are your characters' hooks to get around the "not my problem" problem? I need to know what they are, and further, it'd be cool if your hooks had something in common.

--Gdaze -- Well money IS a good hook. Also just because we want money and maybe aren't the nicest people on the block does not mean we aren't going to care about ANYTHING going on around us. Evil doesn't ignore problems going on around it. What if the Empire is invaded? Well then we can smuggle things to the resistance. I would perfer the hook isn't the same as last time. I believe building up a criminal empire, or richs, is a goal in and of itself. I mean if the world is falling apart, whats wrong with carving out a piece of this freshly baked pie for ourselves? Persoanlly I'd love to actually affect the world, so builing up a power base would be totally fine by me and my vote goes towards it! Sure it may have criminal elements, but who doesn't, right right?

--Edmiao 11:29, 2 August 2007 (MST) personally i am against the motive: build criminal empire. i would like to try to interweave our backstories farther than the prologue also. Justin and I for the exemplars game were doing that, the characters were going to be brothers in law and their respective wives were twins with varioius plot twists: one was lost in time and space, the other merged with her husband. that kind of deeper history.

That said, my character is going to be a kind of lost soul. he comes out of the woods haggard and hungry and maybe one of you wants to take him in and nurse him back to health? this could be any time 1-20 years pre game. so your character could have been a child when your family took Elrin in.

--Gdaze -- Now now, a criminal empire might be what the EMPIRE labels it, it could very well benefit the people! It all matters how one sees it. Criminal Empire does not mean ruthless beatings... all the time, or mass killing or eatting babies. I don't mind wanting to protect a community for example, as long as that community pays proper respect to its protectors.

As for weaving our back stories out like that... I am not going to do that. Since we have no fate points I have no desire to pour time and effort into a guy who can just be picked off by a stray arrow that happens to get Ulric's fury. Besides Robert didn't have that big a story and look how he turned out!

Although, no offense Matt, but I do think we are going to request the fate point system back. If that happens then yeah I could see more developed characters, but really... to put all that effort into something and then just be picked off, suck. Yes combat is dangerous, but avoiding combat in WHFRP is like trying to avoid the sun. (By the way, I was very aware of how dangerous combat was already in WH, but Robert enjoyed fighting because it was one of the only things that allowed him to feel good, and if he got killed he didn't really care.)

--Matts 16:19, 2 August 2007 (MST)Dude, if you don't want to play in the game because of the rule change you can say so - I won't be offended. But if you're not going to put effort into playing the game, then it's unfair to ask for a say in how the terms of play are set. I'm putting effort into running this, a lot of effort, predicated on the idea that the game will be entertaining and meaningful in some respect. If you don't think you're going to enjoy it, you have as much right as anyone else to say so. But if you don't say so, and go into this less committed or interested than other players, that brings down the experience for everyone.

That said, I asked for your trust, namely, your trust that I'm not out to make you miserable. If the rules changes don't work, then we'll go to something that does.

Honestly, I don't think my combat changes are going to make things as dire as you say, but at this point it's all theory and no practice. But to assume I'm going to throw mandatory fights at you willy-nilly and kill your characters is sort of silly. Of course I'm aware of how lethal combat is, and of course I'm not going to force it on you just to be a dick. The fights in the game should be heightened, more interesting, and more meaningful as a result of the system, or at least that's the goal.

I'm not into running WFRP just so I can kill your characters and cackle over their corpses; I'm into running it because I want us as a group to have a good time and tell a cool story, which is the whole point of gaming.

--Edmiao 18:16, 2 August 2007 (MST) Gabe, i'm pretty set against matt's mods to WHFRP too, but he is dead on with the above. I mean, come on, how much time does it take to inverweave backstories? and it makes the characters more interesting and fun and will tend to prevent one character from killing the crew and others from breaking fingers.

--Dieter the Bold 19:01, 2 August 2007 (MST) Me manifesto: Izs not all 'bout the guilders and lucre, me hearties, izs about us livin' it up like kings!! We're all clever lads. No need for us to scrounge and starve like some pack of mongrels. The world's always had the "Av's" and "Aav' Nots", and I don't be seein' no reason not to be part o' the former. Toss a coin or scrap down to the wretches if ya' likes, but don't be gettin' too soft or they'll pull ya' right back down to grovel about in the muck, just like them. We're here to liv' tha' good life and screw all them other luckless sods. The world be a harsh place mates, and we needs ta' stick together and be strong enuff' to be takin' what we deserves!
Now I'm not completely 'eartless. I'm not sayin' we go 'round bashing peoples' 'eads in or knifin' old grannies just fer the laughs in it. We ain't no petty thugs or blarmy cultists tryin' ta screw the 'ol world into shambles. You stay outta' our way and we'll not be causin' ya' more grief than yer already gots. We're just, whazz the word, entrepreneurs! Yeah!! We makes our own rulez and followz our own wayz. You don't like it, SODD OFF and keep it ta yerselves. Cross us, and we'll give ya a second mouth to breav' from in yer neck.

--Gdaze Whoa there boys, ease up on those guns. I was just saying I wasn't going to make some huge arking advanced back story. Yeah I'm gonna make one, I even wrote up like 3 paragraphs for my guy's back story. I just meant I wasn't going to do soemthing like Ed's and Justin's where they had this connection with two wifes who were almost a story in and of themselves, I'll just let that stuff happen as it falls. So yeah I'll make a back story that connects people, but I don't really want to go too in depth. After all Robert never betrayed the main group. Never sold out, never even attacked anyone else (but was attacked by the others for squeeking... and for some reason people jumped to the conclusion that I had been possed by chaos even though nobody knew I had used the mask...) And his back story wasn't like too engrained ya know? Jeez, I guess I wans't too clear!

Anyway, I agree with Dieter, is that the way your doc talks? Scary to think he will heal us.

--Dieter the Bold 10:10, 3 August 2007 (MST) Yeah, I think I'll be working on my English accent. Think some of the more badass characters from either Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels or Snatch. He's combo sawbones (literally, in this milieu), drug merchant and hairstylist. I don't see him as a sadistic or evil criminal, just a hardened and unabashed one. He's not especially or unnecessarily violent, but if some stupid fat fuck needs to be given the beating of his life, he won't shy from it.

--Matts 11:15, 3 August 2007 (MST)Good to hear. I'm sorry I flipped out a bit there. I'm glad that you've got a backstory planned, gabe, and I think you guys have an excellently fitting morality established.

Here's a tidbit: I'm trying to come up with a real-world inspiration for Wissenland, and Kreutzhofen specifically. What are some famous small towns famous for smuggling?

--Dieter the Bold 22:56, 3 August 2007 (MST) I've been thinking, and I don't know of any. Sorry. No Streetwise skill. I can think of big cities, but no small towns. Something on the Mexican border, maybe?

--Matts 17:41, 4 August 2007 (MST)Hay guyz, I just changed SA to a 3-point scale, advances cost 3 points now and also you all get a Fate Point!

--Gdaze -- Japan had a lot of smuggling as well as China. During the Tokugawa you had people smuggling guns, weapons, bibles, and hordes of other goodies! Might take a look at that.

--Edmiao 12:14, 6 August 2007 (MST)i want to be the dread pirate Roberts

--Dieter the Bold 14:08, 6 August 2007 (MST) So, I'll definitely be available this Friday, and I want to know where lie our scruples? Completely lost, well-kept, misplaced but sometimes found? Do we want to specialize in anything? What are our goals?

--Edmiao 16:48, 6 August 2007 (MST) I would really like to link my character as a lost soul found by one of the other characters or their families. does anyone care? Gabe was not interested, Deiter was no comment. Matt, do you know if Ben's character have room for this kind of link with Elrin?

Regarding morals, no one is decisive. With Gemini: I advocated for archeo and everyone else was lukewarm but had no other real strong desires so we went with archeo. and no one but me made an archeo character and thusly our group's disunity. With that caveat, I will say we have well kept scruples regarding everything except the laws regarding taxation. We import books and spices and jewels and all the above "licit goods" and have never dabbled into the "illicit goods". We have been offered some illicit goods in the past and turned down the offer despite serious compensation offered. We've never killed or injured anyone for greed. We have fought officers of the law while trying to evade them when we got busted once and got away. Our favorite category of things to sell is books; we have an extensive network of contacts who want to buy books without the scribe check at customs. We don't necessarily read every book for content, but those who we buy from and sell to we know well and they are not in the market for the heretical or chaos books.

There. Now I've said my bit. My prediction: everyone will agree to it and then go make chaos sorcerers and assassins for hire.

--Matts 17:47, 6 August 2007 (MST)Ben's character definitely has those hooks, though in his absence I can hook you up well enough. I'll email you about that.

Now, as for your goods: I'm happy to set you all up in the way you've described, but what I'm concerned about is this: you've basically stated that under limited-to-no pressure, you basically just want to dodge import duties.

I want you all to think about what happens when the going gets tough, because the going will be tough from the get-go. What if you don't have any work and someone you don't know wants a book smuggled and can't or won't or isn't trustworthy enough to vouchsafe its non-heretical nature? What I want you to think about is *why* your characters do business in the way they do, so, following ed's example, why you don't deal in illicit goods when smuggling's a crime either way.

I really want to define the groups motivations not in absolutes ("we don't do anything really heinous") and more in terms of preference ("we would rather not do anything really heinous").

I am going to make you compromise your character's morals; the only question is to what degree are you willing to fight for them?

--207.200.116.70 18:02, 6 August 2007 (MST)Ben here: Ed, my character doesn't have an opening to have met one of the characters as a child or through his family. In the last 2-5 years, it would certainly be very possible, since my character has a passion for seeking out contacts/allies/followers etc. He'd definitely take in/make use of something as unique as a foundling "not elf": given that he's a mage, he might even have some inkling of what that was, although probably only vaguely. If that works well enough for you, then we can work out the details when I get back. My character has been working as an underground type, possibly even a smuggler the whole time, for the last couple of years (during which he could have "found" Elrin). Just a note on elves in Warhammer: they age super slowly, so it's not like a "teenage" elf would be an "adult" elf within the course of a human lifetime, unless I'm mistaken.

--Dieter the Bold 20:32, 6 August 2007 (MST) Bogoro the Carver would like to politely disagree with Elrin. We have ill-defined scruples, primarily involving not being cruel and staying away from chaos-tainted objects. I'm all for moving the illicit and doing what we have to. We don't kick old ladies down into the mud, we don't knife people just for the hell of it, we don't make peoples' lives worse if we can help it, but we will put forth a little muscle to make things go our way if we have to. And as for Gemini, I wanted S&R, which is why we spent 5 pts. on the tug adapter, but everyone always bitched about jumping around doing that.

--Gdaze 22:51, 6 August 2007 (MST) I'm gonna go with Dieter here. I'm really not looking to play people who have never even killed or injured for greed. Basically I'm smuggling for cash, not so some old man can read some book on ancient gods (some what in character!). And yes I'm okay with drug running and such. Oh, and I'm very interested in smuggling posions and jewels.

As for your hook Ed, your welcome to have met my guy, but he has run for a circus for pretty much the entire first part of his life.