Talk:WHFRP Reboot Recap

--Dieter the Bold 10:54, 1 September 2007 (MST) So, I'll take complete blame for our current situation. I didn't really put a lot of thought into my responses during the interrogation, or my actions leading up to it. I don't know why I set myself up to be a law-abiding citizen when I'm the opposite, and we're all now in deep-shit because of it. So, sorry for grabbing everyone and dragging them over the rails. Still, huge opportunities here for us all to make things happen.

--Edmiao 12:06, 1 September 2007 (MST) Well, i thought playing a crazy character would be pretty appropriate to the warhammer world, and would fit into a group that was less than law abiding. I mean, they have enitre rule sets and a stat about insanity in the rulebook. there's crazy people in warhammer. with the low fate points and not being all there, i figured he wouldn't last long, but i though more than one session! Anyway, he's now on the run from the law, and since the group seems intent on staying in this town, i guess Elrin will wander into the woods to become an NPC for a while. If you value a combat/stealth oriented character, we could try to work him back in somehow. maybe a lot of bribes?

otherwise i'm making a new character, and i want to make something different, so likely a Charlatan or Innkeeper or Merchant. Does the group have any pereference among these? This may leave us with a distinct lack of combat characters. For Charlatan I was considering Entertainer --> Charlatan (comparing rogue and entertainer, I like all the skills in entertainer vs luck in rogue) or, interestingly, Hedge wizard --> Charlatan. He would have petty magic and then a lot of lying and trickery skills. For those with the sorcery book, are there additional Petty Hedge spells? there's six in the main book, but if i'm to devote a whole career to it with no possible magic advancement it would be nice to have a few more, cus some of the six are worthless (protection from rain? unlucky charm that gives minus one to rolls on a d100??). I think unless there are some additional petty magic spells, then I will go with Entertainer --> Charlatan.

what is the group motive here? we seem pretty goody two shoes to be a smuggling band. now we're commissioned by the watch to solve a murder of a guy who we only knew for a few weeks? how in the world did we go from the idea of a cutthroat smuggling band with no conscience to law abiding citizens that are afraid to cut the throat of a bandit and won't take a minute to loot bodies of fallen victims? what good outlaw leaves perfectly healthy weapons on the ground and doesn't run down and slaughter those who attack them? I'm wondering if i should make a smuggler/liar/cheater or a city watch/noble/law abiding citizen?

--Matts 18:15, 1 September 2007 (MST)I think Ed set this whole situation up for an excuse to put Hi-ho Silver! Away! on the wiki.

I would reccomend a combat character because there aren't any in the group and it's good to keep options open. I'd reccomend more of an urban combat character as that seems to be the way the group is trending and more of how I think I tend to skew my preparation; combat characters in warhammer aren't useless outside of a fight - you've got your Estalian Diestro with his Academic Knowledge science, you've got your Thug with Intimidate and Silent Move.

There's a lot of ground between merciless and insatiable killer and smuggler/liar/cheater. You don't need to push your character's morality all the way to one side or another. I've mentioned it before, but one of the primary themes in this game is "what is worth fighting for". The answer to that question doesn't need to be consistent. In my opinion, it's in the variations and exceptions that a character is found, not in the broad uncompromising stances. It's my intention to challenge your characters' morals whatever they are.

--67.40.199.78 22:18, 1 September 2007 (MST) what's worth fighting for? my horse.

Gabe here: First of all Ed, I think you really need to draw a line between what it is to follow the law and to break it. Just because we smuggle doesn't mean we will whole sale slaughter people. That is just stupid. We are criminals, but that doesn't mean we shout it out from the rooftops. And none of us said we were gonna kill everyone, we said if we NEED to we would kill people. Those guys had run away, so I didn't see any reason to kill them. We had a cart of tons of goods that I would assume would be worth more to us in the long run then some guys' swords.

Personally I think its kinda cheap to say we are perfectly law abiding citizens. Yes we will smuggle drugs, yes we will smuggle weapons, yes we somtimes may have to bump someone off. But evil does NOT equal just killing whomever looks at you wrong. That is just cartoony evil which we never claimed to be. If we just go around killing without thought there is no way we can continue to do a SNEAKY thing like smuggling. Smuggling is about making contacts, not killing. If you want to kill and loot I would suggest we become bandits.

--Edmiao 12:31, 2 September 2007 (MST) Even law abiding merchants will kill bandits who accost them. It's just not good business to let them get away so they can ambush you again later in greater numbers. Killing bandits is an everyday occurance in the warhammer world, it's like eating breakfast. Elrin maybe was a bad idea for a character, but I think anyone would have gone back for their horse, how much do those cost, 80gold? I think this was pretty predictable, you'r a smuggler caught red handed. what do you do, turn yourself in to the authorities? I think not. make a run for it and try to salvage what you have. At any rate it was more smuggler appropriate than revealing where your buddies are hiding with the illegal goods.

As for my next character, who I hope will last at least two sessions, i'm not interested in making another combatant because the group is pretty much strictly avoiding combat as far as I can tell. So to fit in better, it'll be a Charlatan. we can hire mercenaries if we feel like we need protection and if we can afford it.

This game's gotten off to a fine start.

Here's a bit of confusion. as Bro and Dim are no longer accused of murder, haven't they admitted to being smugglers? should they be under arrest for that?

--Matts 17:59, 2 September 2007 (MST)The internal mechanics of Kreutzhofen, which I have painstakingly crafted, are responsible for that curious circumstance.

So, I have a question: What can I as the GM do to try to keep people from peeling off from the group all the time? I know I personally get terminally bored as a player when the group is fractured, and I hate to see people not interested in the game.

--Matts 21:51, 2 September 2007 (MST)Also, Ed, if you're cool with it, I'd rather not give up on Elrin just yet. You spent a while making him, others spent a while integrating him into their backgrounds, and just because he's currently wanted for murder shouldn't put a damper on the game. Ultimately the goal is to make a cool story, and if my hastily constructed plot gets demolished and I have to go back to the drawing board, well then I think that's all right. You played your character like a nut, and now he's a dangerous nut. That's an interesting and important qualification.

That's not to say that the group's current predicament will be easy to get out of, but who said warhammer was supposed to be easy?

--Edmiao I think i'd rather leave that up to the other players. What i was hearing last time was that if Elrin is a nut and especially if he's a dangerous nut, then the other characters would not hesitate to cut him adrift. So I ask the other players: do you value someone skilled in stealth and combat enough to put up with someone who is a nut? I think the problem is that, as usual, there is minimal or no feeling of loyalty/bond to tie the characters together enough for them to put themselves into some amount of trouble to help out Elrin. Part of my concept with playing Elrin was that he would need some guidance and would be less interested in the actual plot (my typical character cannot escape the scientist in me who wants to investigate plotlines). Elrin, I hoped, would develop more of an inner dialog and/or just create interesting scenarios because of his little problems. However, what I failed to realize is that it takes some putting up with by the other characters, and there is not enough of a hook to make that happen.

As to why the characters split up: it was actually integral to the way the plot was set up. we were to hide the cart in a barn, and then contact our dude if there was no one at the barn. of course we would split up to both make contact and guard the barn. unfortunately, making contact and town exploration turned out to make up 75% of the night session. That was a plot problem that split the group.

However, the bigger problem is the lack of hook in the group. Elrin was injured pretty badly, so it seemed appropriate for him to hide and rest for the night, which makes for a dull session when the session only lasts one night in game time. Characters get injured in warhammer, and healing can be slow sometimes. The fix for that problem would be a better hook between characters so that others actually care if the injured are bleeding to death under a bale of hay, and once stabilized would actually care if he were left to spend the night hiding under said hay. We left the goods alone with Jason's NPC and Elrin. Would you expect a half dead person to take their normal watch shift guarding smuggled goods? The answer apparently is "yes". And I think that is wrong, and blame it on two things: lack of a good hook and lack of enough players.

Lack of players is going to be a problem in this game if we want to do combat. I think in recent games, we have fallen below critical mass several times, and that's when things get messed up. Last session was essentially a two man show with Dim and Bro, and it seems that things got pretty screwed up. It would have gone much better with elrin around, because I think you needed some sneakiness in the night rather than trying to convince the city watch that you beloned somewhere that you clearly did not. The last time we had a two man show Orentes and Aedil created the broken box scenario, which was a total disaster. The low player count is also going to derail combat situations, as I saw last session. Even with our four regular PCs, the group is ill prepared for any combat. We have a good archer, a mediocre knife thrower, a beginning magician and a medic. As I found last session, you need also a tank. So that was my bad in making the combatant of the group and making him an archer. Looking at elrin, I could make him more of a hand to hand with a little xp into WS and the purchase of some better armor. However, even 3 minions vs one tank might be pretty awful given WHFRP lethality. Thus my inclination to make a Charlatan who will fit into the group combat strategy: Flee! (which is one of Charlatan's talents).

Thus to sum up, I poll the other players. Do your characters value a combat/sneak character enough to put up with a little mental defect and enough to put yourselves into a significant amount of hassle in order to get him back to legal status?

--Matts 11:00, 3 September 2007 (MST)Ed's questions still stand, but I'd prefer it if when characters were dependent on assistance to get back in the scene, if they demanded that assistance. I don't think it's appropriate to write yourself out of 80% of a session because you're injured.

--67.40.199.78 11:13, 3 September 2007 (MST) that would be better for group unity. but I'm not sure how it would have worked in this session. "please guys, just hang out here for the night instead of meeting your contact?" I don't think anyone would have agreed.

--Matts 17:13, 3 September 2007 (MST)Something I totally missed: Fortune points regenerate daily. So use em! Use em for conversation! Use em for extra actions! Use em to bring in new narrative elements a la gemini!

--67.40.199.78 20:16, 3 September 2007 (MST) daily in game time or per session? In looking through careers again, Highwayman looks awesome also and has some nice fellowship advances plus trick riding and combat. Maybe i can have my cake and eat it too. Oh, wait, i did that last night out of gabe's mom's.....

--Gdaze-- Okay I have to chime in here again... It is good business to kill off every bandit? We are transporters... how is it good for business to continuelly put the items in question in danger? In the wild west did they stop the train, pour out, gun it out, and then keep moving? No, they kept the train running. Again, we aren't against killing, but since we owned them so badely why hunt down all of them? They got our message, don't mess with us.

And yes we do flee... why waste resources when we don't need to? But really I think the highway man might work. Heck, we might even BECOME bandits, something I wouldn't mind either.

I actually don't mind that Elrin killed so many officers although that is gonna screw us over if he is linked to us. But on the flip side, how are we to trust someone who has disappeared on us several times into the forest? Although we are loyal to Elrin, Elrin has never really stuck with us, and we have no reason to think he won't run off again. We offered Elrin healing too and he didn't take it. So as for leaving him alone, he seemed fine enough to refuse help.

And don't worry about this officer. Dementis has a plan that should get the watchman killed and or exported and leave us sitting pretty. He just needs a little bit more info which he plans on getting at the party. I think highway man would be awesome Ed. They have neat combat skills + social skills. Plus they use guns!

By the way, my brother rolled 4 10's this Saturday for damage... He did like 47 damage in one hit.

--Dieter the Bold 10:34, 4 September 2007 (MST)Personally I'm conflicted about characters like Elrin. On the one hand, they're quite realistic in settings like WarHamster and offer great role-playing opportunities for really rich scenes. On the other hand, I have a very low tolerance for nonrational people, (children esp.), and do I really want to spend my role-playing energy dealing with one kook character or large plots in which my character is enmeshed? Experience and proclivity indicate the latter of the two. Elrin would make an awesome addition in a book, adventure supplement, etc., but to be perfectly honest, he's just not something I'd want to deal with. I can see why Ed would make a character like that and applaud him for trying to create that kind of situation, I just don't think I have the personal energy/interest to back it up by playing Borobro as having a real hook with Elrin. And while we definitely need some more combat proficiency in our group, I'll admit to not being able to hack having intense interactions with Elrin. I could probably deal if there was a buffer between us, like Dementis or Igantius, but not alone. Still, we've never really worked with mooks before, so I think this would be a fine opportunity to actually have a cohort or group of NPCs we regularly employ for their combat skills. It would allow us to all play the characters we wanted while not setting ourselves up for massacres and give Matt an avenue for slipping us plot hooks and the like.

As for the situation that happened last night, I think Elrin acted 100% normally. We're smugglers, he's wounded, he's frakking crazy, and a bunch of guards just showed up and tried to arrest him and confiscate his shit. All of this having been set-up by my lack of forethought. So, I'm down with Elrin staying, but Borobro would keep his direct interactions very limited. As for the combat discussion that keeps popping up, I think it's beating a dead horse. Killing opponents for teh lootz is a long and time-honored tradition of PCs and adventurers everywhere. Leaving no enemies alive to menace you in the future and establish fearsome reputations is also a good plan. The idea that we want to get the goods through any potential dangers first and foremost is also a completely valid point that I agree with. Difference in tactics, each valid. I don't think we need to take the discussion beyond there. Elrin had a horse, he could easily bring down all the remaining bandits, loot them and catch up. If we got jumped again down the line, we need to step up to the plate and not expect Elrin to be tank, scrapper and blaster all the time everywhere.