Talk:Super Heroes

JASON: Another possibility is White Wolf's Aberrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberrant_(role-playing_game). Havent given it a shake yet, but it looks very flexible and playable. I think you hit something there that was missing from Exemplars as well: the heroes not only need a niche, but they need to be on the same page. I had hoped the preludes would put them there, but they didnt. Everyone needs to be in the same world conceptually, and they need to want (or agree to play in) the same story.

--Edmiao 13:44, 5 May 2008 (MST) everybody know that i am itching to play a supers game. viho ciquala is probably the character i spent the most time on ever. so count me in gung ho. his theme: little man overcomes innate problems to become success. the american dream.

JASON: One more thing about Iron Man. Even though it was only hinted at in the movie, Tony Stark/Iron Man is more than just the future, his character is about conquering demons, especially very strong ones. He is a raging alcoholic who has lost control of Stark International on multiple occasions (once to Obadiah Stane, who renamed it to Stane International), yet he always finds a way to inspire himself to fight back. He was given great talent, and he worked very hard, but his character flaws have almost destroyed him many times. What is so interesting is in the end it seems that what makes him who he is, and what makes him successful, is more the will and the work than the inborn ability. It illustrates how even the supremely talented can be 'self made'.

--Matts 14:11, 5 May 2008 (MST)That's just what I'm talking about with respect to themes: reducing a character to a single theme isn't appropriate, and a character's tertiary themes are still very integral.

--Gdaze-- I'd love to play supers. Give me comicie goodness! I like most of what you put, as long as character generation is strictly watched by the GM (you). I love supers, I mean I'd REALLY like to play it. It'd be cool if we started out with heroes being kinda... just there and then edging into something like the Marvel Civil War series where heroes are required to register... though that could tear the group apart.

Anyway, totally down, even more so cause it uses the hero system which I really like.

Also I think Ironman was a fantastic movie. Plus powered armor is just freaking awesome.

Something I'd like to see in the universe is how do norms deal with the super powered beings. Oh man, are you really thinking of running this? Don't tease me...

JASON: Another big key is that not only does every character need a reason to be part of the story, they need a reason to work with the rest of them. The composition of the group is very important. It might be ok to have a reluctant hero, but you cant have two reluctant heroes and one character who makes a career of being uncooperative. Any of those might work individually, but you cant have all three in a group of 6 or 7. It is also very difficult, and I would say a bad idea, to have heroes of different strains in the same story; in other words, Spawn doesnt star in the same book as Captain America for a reason (and its not just because one is Image and the other Marvel). Their themes, methods, and entire lines are not compatible. It may be appropriate to have a single exception (a goody two shoes in a dark themed game), but a split over which way the storyline is to go will fracture a story very quickly. Superheroes are about archetypes much more than other types of games. I have thought immensely about the failure of Exemplars v1.0, and I think the problems were obvious and its likely they could have been avoided had I took a proactive approach with the themes the same way I did about balancing the numbers on the sheet. I dont think you will fall into the traps I did.

--Matts 15:14, 5 May 2008 (MST)I'd love to run it, but there's a fixed cost of writing up everyone's villain and negotiating backstory that I don't have the time for right now. If or when I run this that'll mean the end of WFRP too, since it wouldn't be fair to run two games at once, and I can't dedicate that kind of time.

--Gdaze-- First off, YES JASON. As in, I agree. Making sure the characters have similar goals is important, even if the goal is simple. For example in Werewolf I was very strict with character creation. If everyone has a different arch-nemsis it might cause a few problems (Oh please, Sarcastro is your problem, not mine!)

That said I think it'd be good to start the team out as a super group. That way characters can share a few arch-rivals and one or two characters could have an arch rival of their own (Wolverine & Sabortooth... Omega Red...)

Also the mood of the game is really important. Like is it marvelish? Image? Stuff like that. Well as far as WFRP goes, and no offense, but I think it will go fairly fast from the point onward. No more running about trying to make deals, it is WAR! YEAH GITTIE UP!

--Gdaze--Also Matt, cause really this has me really excited (By the way Jason I enjoyed Examplers for what it is worth, Matt #2 was a good GM as well!). I would suggest reading Kingdom Come for DC, or even the House of M series for Marvel (I have both!). The first I believe to be well, just amazing, the power dynamics of the world totally shift when you have a person like Superman (always a potential near undeaftable tyrant), and House of M shows, well what would it be like if there were tons of mutants or super powered beings. Okay, five hours of sleep, rant done.

--Edmiao 16:44, 5 May 2008 (MST) i'm very excited about this. also please note that while i am enthusiastic about playing viho, i would not limit myself to him if he turned out to be a bad fit for the group. I agree strongly with gabe that the gm should be strict with character backstory and personality to ensure that a group is cohesive. lots of loners makes for a lot of downtime for all. I have tried in WW to keep the group together more, in hope of minimizing downtime for folks, separate plots are very evident in WFRP. Two styles to generate a group: 1) we just met and 2) we have known each other a long time. If you go with option 2 we could all post backstories, and then cross intergrate them by wiki editing, this may work better than prequils did.

I like the idea of character arch enemies and think that a cohesive group would stick together to combat them.

additional comments on Talk:Exemplars.

--Gdaze 22:40, 5 May 2008 (MST) Eh, I'm just gonna keep talking here! Actually my dude (ette) in WHFRP has no goals that have stayed for a long time, except "get rich" which still hasn't happened. My guy can barely afford to even eat yet rubs noises with high brows all the time! So you know what, I decided to take out the muthafucking Emperor himself!

Ahem. Anyway. I think we shouldn't do the just met thing. At least known each other for a long time. I think every character can have a theme on a team, as long as the team theme is always what the story comes back too. I mean ol'Wolverine has to deal with his past, Cyclops with being boring, Arch-Angel with his time spent under a villian, etc, etc.

This is kinda off the wall but how about aliens? They are present in a lot of comics but humans never seem to travel off world (this always bothers me). It'd be kinda neat if maybe Mars had been colonized or something, I dunno, maybe just me!

--66.235.37.222 22:51, 5 May 2008 (MST)Ok, I'm getting more enthusiastic by the minute. Would people be ok with putting WFRP on hiatus (sorry Brandon) and going for supers?

--Gdaze 23:15, 5 May 2008 (MST) Um, can we at least have a huge combat against the final dudes? I mean can you really be ready that fast?

--Gdaze 23:19, 5 May 2008 (MST) And fix your page stretch dude, it is awful. I am just worried this would be too hastely put together and characters made and bam, we end up with all the same problems.

I'm totally fine with combat and duking it out with super villians, in fact I hope there is at least a decent amount of this.

BEN: I assume that he doesn't mean switch next week. but since there are several people itching to switch out of WFRP, it sounds like Matt has an idea that has popular support.

--Gdaze-- Maybe we should do something like pool our points into a base or something if you'd allow it? Even five points from six or so people is at least a start for a base... Also unsure if you want to leave it that open, I like the power catagories that Examplers had.

--66.235.37.222 08:26, 6 May 2008 (MST)I can't really prepare both WFRP and this game - work is going crazy right now. Also, there aren't really any final dudes in WFRP to lay out right now... did you have any specific ideas?

As is pretty explicitly stated on the page here, this game depends a lot on the concepts and themes you guys send my way. Email me what concept you have, and we can get the themes to where they're workable for the game.

--Matts 08:34, 6 May 2008 (MST)Also, that page stretch totally isn't my fault! You try making a bulleted list some time, and see how it turns out, web ace!

--Edmiao 08:42, 6 May 2008 (MST)I'm all for starting this game asap. That said, a week or two of wiki based character integration i think is a good thing. That said, this friday is planned wfrp, and i will be absent. I'd love to attend the first session of supers. that also said, placing conditionals on any game is bad, and i think we cannot hold a game back for 100% attendance. that said again, ben and i will be gone this friday. so you blokes just enjoy your circle jerk. nuf said

--Brandon 10:55, 6 May 2008 (MST) Sigh. At the moment, I'm pretty excited about my WFRP character. I mean, 'cause he's new and all. But once summer comes (in six weeks or so) my ability to attend gaming will be significantly hampered, because I'll have to work a bunch of Friday nights, I'll be traveling a fair amount, and, um, I'm getting married (out of state). So, it would be unfair of me to attempt to extend WFRP longer than its natural ending point. That said, my only contribution to the Heroes/Exemplars conversation is to say that I'm still pretty baffled at the ending of Exemplars. I've read what's been written, so I have an idea of the others' perspectives, but in my mind things were going reasonably well in the way that brand new games usually go before the dynamic settles down. I didn't see anyone jump over any shark.

--Edmiao 11:16, 6 May 2008 (MST) i agree. Congrats on getting married, i don't think i knew you were engaged.

BEN: I love my WFRP character and I have a lot of fun in that game...your character, brandon, also seems really cool. I'm willing to switch to supers because it sounds like some people aren't enjoying WFRP so much anymore, and I think I could have fun in a supers game as well...the primary goal being for all of us to enjoy ourselves.

--Gdaze-- I like my WFRP character too, but there just isn't much to do. But DIETER, you into this? I remember you saying you didn't like supers? (yet you like comics...) Man what to play... I almost want to do power armor... but that stepping on Viro's toys too much? Man I just went up and picked up that new Ultran story for Avengers...

--Edmiao 13:07, 6 May 2008 (MST) his toes are small, hard to step on. if you want power armor, he could have made it for or with you.

I've never had anything to do in WFRP. iggy kind of drove the plot and elrin was a tag along Towlie character "I have no idea what's going on". Partly my fault cus erlin was crazy, partly the main plot drivers Iggy and Dim were super secretive individual characters and there was no group unity that I could detect. now jacob is the newbie and seems to have little purpose as well. i've thought up stuff for him to do but it's mostly just being a rabble rouser and i think few of the other characters would be interested (feel free to view rabble Secret GM Info for Jacob).

Deiter doesn't like supers? nor werewolf?

--Matts 13:43, 6 May 2008 (MST)What does Lee think about this? Lee?

--Edmiao 13:55, 6 May 2008 (MST) I'd like to state for the record that Matt, as GM, should have never let me play Elrin. he was a bad idea, and i will accept guidance in the future.

--Gdaze-- Yeah, but Matt seems to also want everyone to at least have their idea on the table, kinda why he likes DiTV, you get to say what you think will happen. That said Matt, if a guy doesn't look good, just tell us flat out if you don't think it fits! Like this D&D game I'm doing. "I wanna be a monk." "No." "Why not? I think I can make it work..." "It doesn't fit, they never getter better with equips.." Just tell us!

Hey Dem isn't secrative at all! She has always let the characters know what her intentions are! In fact, Dem hasn't kept one secret from the group save Elrin... that was a protective measure... Well taking out the Emperor is purpose right?

Man not sure what I want to play. I just picked up The Ultron Intative, Avergners. It is really neat, and I love the part where Marvel Girl and Tony Strak are building the team.

--Edmiao 14:38, 6 May 2008 (MST) when Dem went to hire the fire general, were others in the loop, maybe it was just my Towlie syndrome.

--Gdaze-- Yeah, she had a letter, that was the whole point of the trip was to give him the letter. Least for me it was, and she told everyone hey I got a letter to give this dude.

BEN: honestly, ignotus spent most of his time trying to capitalize on other people's ideas and trying to make those things easier for the group. Some of that was done using magic, including highly questionable magic, and given particularly elrin's response when he did something wayward, Ignotus was very afraid of getting killed for taking "questionable" steps. Admittedly, Ignotus had a few major secrets, one of which I was trying to find an excuse to share with people, but it got sidelined by our politicking (except when giant rat monsters tried to eat me). I tried to stay up on Dementis' plans, because I felt, especially over the last 4-6 sessions, that those were the plans that drove pretty much all our actions (or at least I was focused on enabling/profiting from those ideas)

--Dieter the Bold 15:53, 6 May 2008 (MST) Currently enjoying WHFRP. Loved Iron Man, but not a huge supers fan. The huge variety of genres in the comics-continuum and the weird balance between "powers that make sense" vs. "oh, you just made wolverine" make it hard for me to come up with an appropriate character and get my mind into it. Plus, my gaming preferences are for doing things. And by that I mean literally doing things, in all their mundane-ness. So, I'd hate to just toss WHFRP out the door and I'd need a lot of brainstorming plus co-op time in order to put something together. So color me reluctant.

--Gdaze-- Yeah... that balance is hard to reach. I really want something that fits together well but isn't just a stright copy. So far it seems we have tech and magic, which I like. I'm gonna go home and scan through some comcis, maybe pick up the ones at my dad's house to browse through for ideas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marvel_Comics_characters

That is a fairly cool link. Lots of info to be had and might spark something.

--Edmiao 07:52, 9 May 2008 (MST)Well, Deiter is reluctant, any word from Lee?