Talk:Kingmakers

Gdaze 11:48, 7 October 2009 (MST) Hmm, I like the idea that it is set in the normal WH world. Good move. I would also like a rule that there is no back stabbing of each other.

That said though, did you read what I put on the one shot? Too many things going on at once = bad. Give us options, but if its too much we get lost in details (I'm pretty sure Ed would agree with me here). Certain players like Ben and Dieter do like a lot of details, but if you give us tons of things to research, only a few players spend all their time doing it, and the game drags. So a balance is needed.

I actually like the MA game because it can be done in arks. I'd like to at least finish it as well before we start this by the by. Anyway. I think if you did this one, doing it in arks would be a good idea.

As for starting out at a lower level with rapid advancement...? I'm gonna vote this down. As we saw last Friday, even with a 80%-90% succues, failure can happen quite often. And lets face it, low level WH... we've done it, we know what it is like. So I say maybe lets start out with 2,000 exp or so. Maybe make the first few adventures advance quickly, like 200 exp, then slow it down to 100, or even 50. No reason we have to keep advancing quickly.

Another idea... get rid of the career system? I mean in the game everything costs 100 EXP. And this could allow for some crazy combos, but also would allow us to build the type of character we want. Sage Knight? Noble Pick-Pocket? Servant Girl Assassin? Magic School Drop-Out? Gambler-Den Junkie?

Too many times people have to take skills they don't really want, or don't get skills they'd really like to play. I know why the system is the way it is, but this might actually allow better RPing. Of course everyone is going to have dodge blow... However, characters would at least have to come up for a title for what they are.

What do you think?

For those who won't read something that long:

-Keep adventures in story arcs, not huge complicated plots that take over a month or two to complete.

-Start at 2,000 exp.

-Get rid of the career system, allow characters to build the type of character they want to be. But have to name what they are, to help make sure they have a clear concept.

--Matts 12:04, 7 October 2009 (MST)If we're ditching careers, I'd ditch Warhammer entirely for all the reasons you articulate above. I'm not sure just a name helps solidify the concept, because part of game balance sort of rides on the current setup. There's lots of fantasy systems out there that could shoulder this kind of game, like Savage Worlds, and if we're going to be bending the system past its comfort zone I think it's worth taking a look at something that's more geared to the way people want to play. I'll proof up a savage worlds test and see where that goes.

As to the arcs, yes. The whole point of the game is that it's episodic but the episodes don't require a ton of work on the part of the GM.

In terms of the introductory arcs, the aim there was solidifying the group's ties to their noble and each other, but if it doesn't sound like a fun idea, no worries.

I take your point about too much happening being confusing. I'd try to highlight at the start of each session the important news, I guess? I feel like that's been done before and to varying degrees of success, but certainly the goal isn't to paralyze everyone with difficult decisions.

--Gdaze 12:58, 7 October 2009 (MST) Is it really bending it past its comfort zone though? I mean sure, everyone is going to have dodge blow, but they made this change to WH40K so everyone does indeed have it, even if at half. Makes combat a little easier on the players, but I don't think that is a bad thing. The reason I like the Warhammer system is that it is simple. I'd give savage worlds a look though. But doesn't that mean making up a ton of stuff?

You don't need to highlight the nessary news I think, just if someone starts down a path say "This isn't important, now, or yet, so we can say you research it but it won't have an affect at this time." That way you can think up later what they find out, instead of trying to come up with something on the spot and it moves the game on.

And on systems, totally fine with it as long as it is simple. Hero is nice but even in fantasy combat lags.

Edmiao I think matt suggested an opening arc with 2-3 sessions of rapid xp, i think he was thinking one session at first tier, one at second and then by the third session everyone is third tier and then xp more slowly. presumably the first sessions would be spaced in time several years apart and would provide history for the group hook. I like the idea.

I think Gabes main point about careers is that there is a bunch of lame stuff in each career that you might want to skip, but are forced to buy. this could be gotten around by giving each player one skill to not buy per career and possibly one to swap for something else that is in line with the character, gm approval. small tweak to the system.

as to the game, i'm generally up for anything, just remember that as the night wears on, i get sleepy and then it's more fun to stab some npc who is bugging you in the back or face than to talk them around to your side. will a diplomacy heavy game end up dragging on because it encourages overplanning and drawn out schemes.?

--Gdaze 15:08, 7 October 2009 (MST) Yeah, pretty much what Ed said but also allows the player to make a character they want. Like Anjou, he was suppose to be a classy night, and didn't RP out his fellowship score, or even have the skills he needed to. The wine sale is a classic example (sorry Matt). I mean if this is a back stabby game the chance that everyone is going to play very smilar classes is quite good. So why not just let the character build their own class? Anything the GM doesn't like, he can say "Well I'm not sure this skill fits..."

And yes, needs to have some fighting! Maybe some guild fights in the streets?

--Matts 15:30, 7 October 2009 (MST)There will be fighting, otherwise why would we use Warhammer? My hope is that every session has a few little mini-episodes, and if neccesary, a story-ish bit. Ed's concerns about pacing are well-noted, and I like the sound of 11PM Friday Night Fights.

How about this: you can come up with whole careers (i mean it says you can do it in the book) and I can approve them. OR, you can take an existing career and swap out 2 skills or talents per career, also subject to approval. An example of approval is that I'd probably give you dodge blow, but unless it really fits your character (say, you're in a combat career) I probably wouldn't let you take it again. If your career doesn't have an interaction skill you'll have to swap an existing skill for it.

And PEOPLE! Please! Enough with the whine sale!

--Gdaze 15:47, 7 October 2009 (MST) I know I know... sorry. But it was an good example of playing what you want, and being limited by the system. We are a very heavy RP group, as in character acting. That is why I think this method will work better with our group.

Creating careers is nice, but are you going to come up with a format for how many skills/talents each one has? I still think free form but having to come up with a concept works best, meaning yes, everyone could evetually buy 40% or whatever in an ability.

I think the system itself will keep players from buying everything. I mean if you buy a ton of skills and no abilities, you have a lot you could do, but most of the time fail at. Again, just musings. Maybe we could try making some example characters with each? Just the way it is set up now it is kinda weird to be like... "Oh I use to be a bone picker, then I became a theif, after that I was a merchant for a bit before becoming a criminal overlord..."

I like the idea of just picking a theme for your character, maybe 2 to 3 words, and building your character around that.

IDEA: This idea is actually kinda like "An Unforgettable Party". And I think it would be really fun. Maybe we could come up with a control map? Like a map of the Empire, and maybe even one of the houses in the main city, and who controls what. This way we could track our process. I realize this makes it a bit of a sim game on top, but I really like the idea and could help get the players into the game.

Could even come up with favor adventures. Basically an adventure that night where you give the characters a few options to choose from and if they do it, they bring in a new advantage to their lord. Like knights, mages, rights to a certain trade, etc.

These are just ideas, but seeing actualy numbers and stuff might help out. I'll lend you the Border Princes book as it has some rules for this that, if nothing else, might help you think it up. In fact... that book might be really useful for this.

--Matts 16:02, 7 October 2009 (MST)Gabe, you basically just described my vision for the game. Pick an ally to develop relations with, adventure! Pick a guy you don't like and go after him, adventure! A map is a phenomenal idea. But the reason I was scribbling on those cards during the one-shot was because they were "assets": the things you use to go after other lords, or defend yourselves, basically the pieces that make up a political faction. To strengthen your faction, you have to bring people (or things, technically) into the fold. To weaken another faction, you have to pry their components away from them through various means. The idea here is that each one of those actions is a little mini-adventure involving intrigue, combat and adventure.

I never really explained it that well, and I don't know why, but there it is.

--Gdaze 16:26, 7 October 2009 (MST) Haha, well glad I could help there. And thats okay, that was a first adventure, so it kinda helps us see how a game like that could work. Sounds weird but I'd like to help make the cards and stuff. I like making things for games, running them... m'eh. I'm not always as into that, and it shows in MA.

Also all players should pick the same task OR, and this is a bit more work, up to you, let the players break off into two groups, no smaller then two people. Those who aren't doing something? Play magic. Although I dunno... not sure I like this idea looking at it again. Maybe players could vote ahead of time, like Mon-Tues.

Edmiao basically, if the GM is excited, then I'm good to go. I would likely want to revive Jacob. schemer, back stabber.

--Matts 16:57, 7 October 2009 (MST)I'd rather not encourage break-away groups. It's a reality that people are going to want to do things off on their own but I'd like to keep the group together as much as possible. And as a group we don't do so well with back-stabbing so let's avoid that if possible.

JASON: As someone who has played in this, and many other groups, I just have to completely disagree with Gabe. This is NOT an RP heavy group. Its completely the opposite, and the bitching about Anjou from all the non-RP'ers completely proves it. This is a GAMING heavy group. Look at what you care about: how many XP will I get? Can I switch out skills that arent powerful (completely broken) for ones that are? How can we make this so I can exploit the system as well as possible? How can we start with enough XP so I dont have to fear failure?

Its perfectly valid to want to play the game you want, and your game wants are fine. They arent RP. Its video gaming with dice.

--Gdaze 23:56, 7 October 2009 (MST) Whatever Jason. You are wrong. I didn't say switch out skills that weren't powerful, I said switch out skills that you didn't want your character to have(or felt they didn't go along with the character you envisioned). And I pointed out a problem might happen with dodge blow. That has nothing to do with exploiting the system, really... where are you coming from on this? Did you just read half of what was typed? And its not fearing failure, we just want to have characters that start out resonable skilled. Just having the system back up the RP so to speak. I use the Anjou example that the system didn't allow Ben to play the type of character he envisioned, and the WH rp isn't set up this way. You aren't even suppose to last very long. Your coming out like a barking dog.

Asking how much exp we get is hardly "playing a video game with dice". I take most of what you say in stride, but this is just plain false.

Without rules, it becomes telling stories around the camp fire, think you actually said something like this.

Edmiao wow.

we're an RP heavy group: means we are not dungeon crawling DnD trying to kill monsters so we can get xp.

swapping skills in WFRP: I play a thief, backstory theif has spent his life breaking into universities and learning stuff, but primarily he's a theif. he is a loner and has no reason to know secret tongue theives guild, and by backstory should know read/write, but for the sake of argument thief lacks read/write. how about a swap of those skills to fit the backstory?

xp discussion: Jason, if you had been at the one shot, and you are always invited you know, then you would have observed that the characters are "kingmakers" thus the name of the game, and are the closest advisors to the king. they are not camp followers, thus they should start out at relatively high xp (third tier in the one shot). thus the xp discussion.

--Matts 10:15, 8 October 2009 (MST)I'd really like for this page to stick to the discussion about this game, because it'd be really easy to get into the debate that we've had many times already, and this being a wiki and all, there's plenty of space to start another page dedicated to gaming groups, ours in particular, or whatnot.

So I'm going to be a jerk and delete any further debate on this page that's not about Kingmakers.

About skills, etc. Warhammer is a reasonably fun system to fight a combat in; not the best, mind you, but reasonably fun. I'm open to small tweaks on the order of what we did after the fallout from the whine sale - a few replacement skills, etc. I'm not open to scrapping the whole career system. There's a difference between playing the character you want and playing something that's totally broken, and warhammer relies on the career system for basically all of its game balance. A huge part of that game is working within the restrictions of your class, and if we're throwing that out, then it's time to find a system that works better.

Luckily, Jason's already done most of the hard work for getting WFRP to work in Deadlands, and it's a small hop from there to Savage Worlds. It's a system I think you guys would like. For the next time we do a one-shot, I'll use it and we can weigh pros and cons.

--Gdaze 10:50, 8 October 2009 (MST) Your mom is a small hop from there. Well okay, I really don't think it will break the system, but we can try it your way. Personally, if we are going to be playing in the WHFRP, I'd like to stick with a system that was made for that world. But thats just me.

I just wanted to say this on the whole career system. Leveling up is always fun, leveling up and getting something you don't care about, not fun. But it sounds like you will be pretty fair about skill swapping, if it is anything like how you swap spit. WHFRP is by no means a perfect system, and I believe they are currently redoing the entire thing.

I'm okay with using the classes if you want. I just thought it might be interesting to open it up a bit more. Don't think we need to throw out the system just because of such a suggestion, that is just silly.

I also would really like to stress that you should read Border Princes

--Gdaze 11:37, 8 October 2009 (MST) Quick question/suggestion, what about swapping out attributes as well? On a 5% basis.

--Matts 12:06, 8 October 2009 (MST)I am less inclined for that; You can choose your career, so choose a career with the stats you want in its progression.

--Gdaze 14:02, 8 October 2009 (MST) Alrighty. So, the first few advetures we will be lower level, yes?

--Gdaze 14:55, 8 October 2009 (MST) Because I think it is likely that we will be backing a human. Would you allow someone to play a dwarf or halfling?

Edmiao Halfling?!! god damn kithkin. Matt, if this game goes forward, it would help to know what was so good about the king we are backing. for example if one was playing a character with high morality, they might have a moral reason to back the king. if one was playing a greedy character, then money might be the motivation. give us a couple of things about the king that might be good hooks to draw the caracter's loyalty to the king. or maybe we're all cousins....wait, that would tend to make us want to kill the king.

--Gdaze 15:12, 8 October 2009 (MST) You oaf! I'll have at ye knees! AH HA! Actually Matt said on the Kingmaker page that he is still considering just who the person is we are backing. And I think the first few adventures, like you said, are gonna be about why we care about our king.

We are going to make it so the players can't sell each other out right? Back stabbing NPCs, I'm totally okay with. But I'm not interested in a PVP type anything game.

Edmiao agreed

BEN: I'm making an Elf: outlaw-highwayman-outlaw chief. If that crimps somebody's style badly, I'll make another mage: I'm sure THAT will make everyone happy.

--Gdaze 09:14, 12 October 2009 (MST) I'm all about non-humans, you gonna be an elf who uses guns? That'd be tight. I was actually thinking of playing a wizard this time, never have and would like to.

--Matts 11:41, 12 October 2009 (MST)Since Nate's coming, he's gonna make the Noble and y'all are gonna be tied to his character intimately. Be prepared to hook your loyalty on a variety of possibilities.

--Gdaze 16:14, 12 October 2009 (MST) So is that okay if I play a mage then? I'm going mage, there I said it.

BEN: well, I will try to end up in highwayman anyways...looking over it and I may do something silly, like envoy-rogue-outlaw...starting highwayman. but the key thing is highwayman.

--Gdaze 22:00, 12 October 2009 (MST) Highwayman is pretty badass. It was a class I thought about doing in the last game for awhile. You can end up spending a long time in the career cause they get so much neat stuff.

Edmiao gabe, do you remember which were the classes that get ventriloquism? cus that's just a cool skill

--Gdaze 12:07, 13 October 2009 (MST) It IS a cool skill. Entertainer. They have a huge amount of skills to take and pretty neat exit careers. They also have a lot of "x skill or y skill", as well as the same with talents. It was hard to move on from the career because they have a lot of fun abilities. They also get the thrown weapon group, which is fun.

Others might, not sure.

OH AND MATT, I think even 3,000 exp is more then enough. When we make our guys, should we give them the one free advance to start?

--Matts 13:18, 13 October 2009 (MST)How about no free advance to keep things simple.

Edmiao that free advance really confuses things, no free advance. gabe, as i recall in the one shot we had 3500 xp and that was getting us into the third tier plus one or two advances for a merchant. I like the entertainer idea. i wonder if you can go from entertainer to assassin?

--Gdaze 14:29, 13 October 2009 (MST) 3,500 got me well into 3rd plus a good amount of advances. Of course maybe I just didn't track it right? It was fairly haphazard that night. I just didn't know if we wanted the feel of some progression or not. I'm okay either way.

Getting to assassin is pretty tough. I believe Spy can get to it, but I'm not sure if entertainer can go into spy, it can go into minstrel (only class that can), which I think can then go to Spy. Ministrel which I won't look up how to spell, has few skills but the Fell goes up to +30, so it can take awhile to get out of.

The Spy route is pretty cool as you get a bunch of langauge skills and common knowledges.

I'm having trouble choosing which Lore to go into as a wizard. Well not Beast or Earth as those aren't quite as useful in the city.

--Dieter the Bold 17:10, 13 October 2009 (MST) Love the idea. Always wanted to do something more high-level like this. I agree with both sides that it's hard to make an individualized character with WHFRP's system but is also a delicately balanced system. I think we'll manage to find the right middle ground. I wouldn't mind playing a spy master. Be the one responsible for collecting rumors, ferreting out traitors, etc., etc.

BEN: changed my mind, as I am wont to do. I intend to roll for my career and stats on friday and take whatever the dice gods find fit to give me.

--Gdaze 12:59, 14 October 2009 (MST) I thought about this but kinda did that last time with my entertainer... I think. It is always fun! Rolling for stats too eh? GRITTY.

BEN: can you please tell us a bit about The Noble: greedy, honorable, pious...etc.

--Matts 23:04, 14 October 2009 (MST)I'm leaving those details up to Nate, so you can plan accordingly.

Edmiao i was going to do Entertainer to charlatan to spy to assassin, but it would take like 5500 xp to get to assassin. lots of nice skills in there though, but pretty zero on the combat effectiveness if i stop at spy, i think.

--Gdaze 11:17, 15 October 2009 (MST) That is like four careers! And if you make an Entertainer, you must name him/her June-iper Midskee.

--Dieter the Bold 11:33, 15 October 2009 (MST) Have changed my mind. I'm rolling up a character and stats a 'la Ben. I'll do that at home so I'll be ready to go as soon as I arrive on Friday. I'll still be trying for a spy master career, but we'll see what the dice say...

--Gdaze 13:27, 15 October 2009 (MST) Hardcore, again. But my dice rolls recently have not been so good.

Matt, this first adventure, is it taking place before all the shit hits the fan? As in the Emperor is still alive? Let us know.

--Matts 13:29, 15 October 2009 (MST)The shit has hit the fan already, and the purpose of the meeting between the lowengeists is to figure out what the fuck to do about it.

--Gdaze 16:53, 15 October 2009 (MST) Thank ya Ed.

BEN: I'm going to start as soon as matt gets in on rolling up my char: I'll roll race first, then career. If any of y'all have things you want me to definitely exclude, say so before that happens. I'm already excluding halflings, because I want neither to be a cannibal or to live in a swamp. or to just be a fucking halfling. god I hate those guys. So, for example, if Gabe wants me to reroll mage or Ed wants me to reroll entertainer and/or bretonnian, now is a good time to say, I won't be offended.

--Gdaze 18:48, 15 October 2009 (MST) Eh I don't care. Although now that you mention it, I want you to reroll all races excepth halfling.

BEN: I'm not offering to make my character by committee, ombudsman gabriel, just trying to avoid stepping on toes. But your input is duly (dully?) noted. Expect a a halfling soldier-veteran-champion, WoW style (how do they carry those swords? it just violates physics!)

--Brandon 13:35, 16 October 2009 (MST) I just want to step in briefly --Matts 14:33, 16 October 2009 (MST)yo Brandon, imma let you finish, but I had the best joke on this WHOLE PAGE. The WHOLE PAGE.
to mention that I violated your mom's physics last night.

--Gdaze 14:36, 16 October 2009 (MST) Wikiblock, Epic Style.

--Dieter the Bold 15:25, 16 October 2009 (MST) Rolled everything but gender. I am an Elven Scribe named Falandar. I'll be going to Agitator, then Charlatan. Trying to decide between Spy, Politician or Demagogue after that.

--Brandon 15:55, 17 October 2009 (MST) How about we try this again? I want to thank Ben's mom, Gabe's mom, and all the other moms out there for believing in me and for allowing themselves to be the butt of harmless jokes. (Matt, no more drinking Hennesey with Joe Jackson prior to wiki-editing for you! And this is the last time you get to sit in the front row.)

Edmiao gabe. can you give matt some advice about naming npcs? Hans Stuckup-Lowbrow and Hans Leglift-Lowbrow are getting confused in my head.

BEN: for the record, I like interesting NPC names. And I'm not sure how simplifying them will make them more memorable. But if it helps...