User talk:BenofZongo

--Edmiao 15:36, 16 April 2008 (MST) deleted old chat.

Do you envision a world where the races are insular, and would not interact, or one where there is diverse trade and cross friendships. i would imagine that the player group would tend to be a mix of races. The idea of buying fat lootz with xp is nice also, one of the problems with dnd was that you find the vorpal blade and only one person can get it. then the other folks are kind of left low on the lootzing. would you allow us to "request" lootz to be incorporated into the sessions? like, hey i'm a theif, i want to spend xp on some boots of sneaking, can the gm help work them into the plot somehow, like on a villain, or would players need to commission them from some magic bootmaker, which would require added money. there's a thought, a big feature of high fantasy is gold, which converts into lootz. would you need both gold and xp to acquire lootz?

I think the roving ship idea with islands sounds interesting, similar genre style to gemini and space opera. Hopefully this time we can make a crew who have similar goals in life. I would suggest not smuggling, since that was the theme of both gemini and wfrp, and that as a group cohesive element seems to be somewhat lacking. I think Iggy is the only one with any interest in smuggling these days.

BEN: I am fairly certain I would not use the ship idea, because of the way gemini went. I would agree to it only if I had some assurance from the players that they would make an actual "crew"...I think for this game, actually, I would have the players meet in an inn, or some other classic gaming trope.
my thought for loot was as follows: for some super bad ass piece of loot, it might be pre-described. But for any other kind of loot, you as the player just describe where it is, or where you found it ("hey look, this mook was wearing some boots of sneaking, and didn't even know it [marks off chunk of xp on character sheet]! Zing, dibs!"). This eliminates the emphasis on looting, but still allows the characters to loot to their heart's content. It also incorporates some cooperative storytelling elements, which y'all know I love. If you have the xp, chances are good that I will allow your expenditure, although super-high powered items will probably have to come from a suitably high powered encounter...haven't thought about limits in this sense yet though.
As for the races, the world will be very classic DnD or whatever in its feel. Nobody is insular, whether racially or politically. Obviously, races/kingdoms have prejudices, but you as a player can go ahead and ignore those with appropriate background. If this turns into a bigger thing, I'll start posting some races: off the top of my head I've got: elves, blood elves, dwarves, wood elves, humans, orcs/goblins (with a persians/samurai feel), were-creatures, treemen/dryads, faeries, golems...possibly some reptilians or other more monstrous creatures as well.

GABE: Haha Ben, you update your page but there is so much I don't know what you did!

I'd like to say I'm very interested in the true high fantasy game. And would vote for it after werewolf finishs up. That said I think the hero system would work best, also, both games we had going would be using the same system. I love high fantasy but I don't like GMing it cuz then I'm not a character.

Also I'd really vote against spending exp on items. I mean why buy an item if I can just spend the points on myself? That way they can't be taken away like a magic item. Personally I think its odd for an enemy to have a magic item and NOT use it (even D&D says this shouldn't be done as villians are not that stupid). It just gives the game a different feel if the characters are allowed to make up items, plus it means the GM has to watch the characters very closely to stop power gaming.

Finding random loot, or any loot, is a major part of the fun for me in fantasy. Making up items is actually fairly easy for Hero anyway. I think exp points should be spent on your dude, not items, as it reflects your improvement. Plus it would slow down the gameplay, now instead of getting items that help you take on harder and harder enemies you have to save up to buy one. Know what I mean?

I made up a LOT of shit for fantasy hero, I mean I have pages, I'd like to show you what I did with them, even have a "level up" system. Also if we do boats, sweet, as I have a crap-load of paper boats from that wiz-kids pirate game. Also, we could use my item cards for the magic lootz.

--Edmiao 13:05, 18 June 2008 (MST) hillarious. gabe, on the "recent changes" page, next to a change, click the "diff" button. then it shows you what is new. then on that page, click the "next difference" button. jason, don't read the above what gabe wrote or your head may explode

GABE: Oh wow, I didn't know you could do that.... sweeeeet. Haha, you mean about the phat lootz?

BEN: I would also like to see the fantasy game become a reality. as for XP on items...its definitely up for discussion. If I used this system, I would probably make it that for "basic", non magic loot, you can make up what people have on them (ie, knives, armor, etc) as long as it doesn't violate what you've seen on them), but for special loot (ie high quality items, magic items, etc) the GM would generate it and then you could only spend points on it if you wanted what was pregened. I agree that finding random shit is more fun, so for anything nifty or cool it would be GM generated.
I would definitely use fantasy hero. I might be interested in some stuff you did, but I am very particular about making up my own game world and systems, so don't be offended if I don't use much of it. Your argument about items isn't completely correct: items will have the OAF and Independent disads, which is a 4x discount compared to if you bought them "on your dude". My main issue is that while lootz and rewards are a major driving factor for some players/characters, avoiding material goods (ie, warrior monks, etc) can be a big part of other characters and I don't think its fair for loot-oriented characters to reap disproportionate rewards from the game world. If you have to pay with points, everybody gets the same amount of benefit. Also, it means that if I have you fight a guy in platemail, I don't have to have a long argument with you about how f-ing hard it would be to a.) get it back into great condition after you've just mauled the dude b.) find someone who would actually buy it c.) that you might get 5-10% of market value d.) how cumbersome it is to lug around, etc, etc. Like I said, improving your dude with equipment is a.) much cheaper and b.) there's some benefits (HKA, RKA, Armor, etc) that you can only get with equipment.
All of that being said, its an experimental idea and I'm not at all set on it. If I didn't use it, I would be enforcing very strict rules on encumberance, trading/selling, etc.
but yeah, I was just thinking about sprucing up this idea because I do really want to run it. I wouldn't have a "leveling up scheme" I don't think. I'm happy to discuss any elements of it.

GABE:

Well first off I just don't allow monks usually, haha. But there are plenty of items to power them up, bracers, boots, vestments, whatever.

Yeah... but why spend exp on something that can be taken away and I could just buy? Even for normal items it seems kinda weird to spend points on. Why should I spend points to make my enemies more difficult just so I can take their stuff when I could just buy the item in a market place? So cheaper exp yes, but the fact that it can be stolen is in my mind, a waste of exp. So I don't think it is so incorrect.

The problems with taking every item is pretty easy to solve. A. is actually the eaisets "It is beyond repair." Bam, not much the character can do there. B. Finding someone to buy platemail shouldn't really be that hard if this is HIGH FANTASY. Adventurers are a type of people and their is a business to supply them. However, whoever does end up buying the armor, say a smith, will most likely buy it for only 1/4 if not less of the value. D. Again, just enforce the rule of weight allowence.

Trying to phase out the character's want of loot and gold will make for a game where the characters will do ANYTHING for gold.

And sure loot guys may get an advantage over the un-loot guys, but the un-loot guys can't be disarmed. And like I said, just get creative with items and is should even out.

I like to think of exp has something I've learned, not an item I just happen to get... Why spend exp for something I can just buy?

My ideas are more about skills and stuff, ways for people to break the 20 stat limit, stuff like that. For examples, a naked power advantage, autofire with HtH killing attacks for a "Fury Attack" sort-a thing. Or another one for warrior type characters is damage resistance, due to whatever reasons they can soak a bit of killing damage.

BEN: I guess I didn't make this clear but...if I used that system, to "buy" items you would have to spend xp on them as well, if you wanted to keep them. any "gold" you got would also be partly represented through xp points. It's clear you don't like this idea, and that's alright. If I don't use this idea, there is a possibility I will use a system other than Hero, although again, I haven't really thought about the nuts and bolts of this game.
Overall, I just thought it would be an interesting way to make characters stick to their "archetype": there's no reason, in this system, for everyone to have identical equipment, to wear a plate helm and no armor anywhere else, to strip every piece of everything off of everybody. But like I said, if you'd rather have the GM do that in other ways, that's fine, and I will lay out what those ways are very early on. I have no intention of restricting loot in any way, I understand that that is one of the major tropes of this genre.

GABE: So we buy everything with exp? Doesn't that mean that the non-loot guys are the only ones who are really improving since everyone else has to blow exp on armor and stuff? Yeah, I guess I wouldn't really be down with that. Just to me exp does not equal gold, so it strikes me as making a heroic style game heroic. I'm also not sure how it would make guys stick to their arch-types... Ah well, we'll see what system is chosen and what everyone thinks!

--Edmiao 14:16, 18 June 2008 (MST)don't really care about the details, but would definitely be interested in a fantasy game.

--Matts 15:43, 18 June 2008 (MST)I'd like a clarification of terms: What exactly does "true high fantasy" mean? Is it a setting? Is it a specific kind of system, with levels and loot and such? Is it a scope?

--Edmiao 16:16, 18 June 2008 (MST) i'm thinking different races of characters (elves, dwarves, kithkin - we're not halflings!, or whatever), plus magic, plus monsters = high fantasy. whether there is loot and levels i don't much care. that's what it is in my head. like wfrp, but instead of having everything special about the world hidden and rare, it is common. but it would be however the gm envisions it.

GABE: For me high fantasy is about lots of differenct races and loads of magic. Also how things use to be better, but have now fallen into ruin. At the same time, the medevial mindset is not quite there. And about finding loot from monsters, not all the time but a part of it. Also that the characters can become legends.

JASON: I think what Gabe is missing here is no one is forcing his character to keep any loot. If the loot costs xp, and he would rather have skills, then take skills and drop the loot. The key to this is it keeps everyone on an even keel. Not to mention that in a high fantasy world the chance of selling dropped armor are much less than in medieval. When money is plentiful, who wants used (and damaged) goods? No one (except the poor, and they pay squat). Heck, in todays world you get less than 1/4 for items (like dvds) that are perfect and no different from new just because they are second hand.

GABE: Eh, but that is just your take on High Fantasy. EXP to me just doesn't represent items. You can argue till your blue in the face. Again, use real world all you want but it is silly when the other subject being compaired is a fantasy world to me. And if you wanted to, it certainly doesn't make sense that I wouldn't keep something. And if I DO keep something, for some reason I don't get better with my ability to use my sword? That doesn't really make sense.

JASON: It isnt my take on high fantasy, its simple economics as taught anywhere. More money and more stuff equals lower prices for used items. You have said that you view XP as a reward, and part of the reward is the stuff you get. What this does is quantify that. You earn x amount of reward, some of it stuff, some of it in other things. What you are asking for is you want an equal reward to what other players get, and stuff on top of that. Ben has already stated that part of the idea is the players get extra xp to account for the stuff. All this is going to do is give some extra xp to the dudes who choose not to take any items.

BEN: well, more than anything, it was meant as a fun mechanic that would eliminate some bookeeping: this way, you wouldn't have to keep track of gear, and gold, and xp, it would all be rolled into one (as long as it was character consistent, etc). But I can see what gabe is saying: part of the fun for some people is having the bookkeeping, having everything separate and assigned in detail. Using xp for everything is essentially a narrativist abstraction to try to force players to RP stuff out and to make what they own as much a part of the character as who they are. It's really a storytelling mechanic: in stories, characters progress sometimes by getting better, and sometimes by getting better stuff. In games where the two are separate, xp is still an abstraction: take WFRP: at the end of one session, all of a sudden you can speak classical. Leveling systems are even more extreme. You kill 1 goblin and all of a sudden you are stronger, tougher, more skilled, etc. This isn't BAD, I'm just highlighting that any and all advancement schemes in games are imperfect abstractions of how a real person or, more importantly, a character in a story, progresses/learns/improves. As jason suggested, in this system characters would get lots of xp, with the assumption being that they would spend some on gear. Also, remember that this system wouldn't make it so you couldn't USE anything without spending XP: you just couldn't keep it. It would be yours, say, until the end of the session, and then if you wanted it longer, you'd have to pay the points. Again, just an abstraction for the fact that someone like Robin hood, for instance, as a character, isn't just a super bad ass who happens to have purchased a bow and a sword, etc, but he IS a dude, a bow, and a sword. (and green tights)
along the same lines, I had an idea that other than dwarves, magical items in this world can "appear" through attunement: that is, items that serve someone well, and that do great things, inherently draw magical power into them. This would explain why, say some great warrior's axe or sword or whatever was magical, just inherently. Also, this would create a mechanic where gear that your character has can get more bad ass over time.
So, yeah. i think, Gabe, that you are thinking about this xp thing very literally, but I understand that taking xp as "learnin' and skillzin'" as opposed to just general "improvin'" is a valid position.

--Edmiao 19:51, 18 June 2008 (MST) personally, i very much like the idea of xp for lootz. back in the day of DnD, we'd find some ridiculously powerful magic vorpal magic sword that was intellegent and spit fireballs. one character got it and that character then kicked ass. Being the guy who got that sword, i can say it was awesome; but quite unbalanced. I think the xp idea is a great way to keep things even.

Please note, in my opinion this xp vs loot debate is a miniscule aspect to whether you want to play in the genre "high fantasy".

--Gdaze 20:08, 18 June 2008 (MST) Uh huh..., lets apply real world economics to a place where things can just be created out of thin air! Just because something is plentiful in one area doesn't mean it will be in the next area. Trying to apply modern economic theories to a fantasy world is just pointless.

Also Jason, where did I put down that "I view exp as a reward", don't put words in my mouth dude! I said I view it as something different, which your character has learned. Anyone with the money can buy a suit of armor or nice gear, but it takes someone well trained or with some experiance to really use it well.

And yeah, leveling up is fairly astract, like you said, I can now speak a new langauge! Uh... what the heck? But to me this furthers the abstraction. It is just fine if you want to phase out money and only use character points to keep stuff, but to me it just doesn't give the game the feel of high fantasy.

I admit though, I like keeping track of what I buy, and how much gold I get or richs, whatever. Removing it for me makes buying things, or motivation to do things less of an experiance over-all. Also while Robin Hood is about his bow, it is not like a special bow. In his hands a bow turns to an deadlier weapon. So for me it is the character that empowers the item through their skill which is why I would have difficulty speading exp for an item.

Oh come on Ed... that isn't a very hard problem to solve... and since then a lot of things were put in place to stop that... thats just a sign of a bad GM! Also it may be small for you, but for me it is important for the feel of the game.

BEN: ok, I didn't realize you felt so strongly about it, it was just an idea. I'll use it for some other game (assuming this one becomes a reality at some point). Fantasy is a very trope-rich genre, so there's a lot of points to hit to make it appealing to everybody...hopefully people aren't too disparate about what those points are.

--Gdaze 20:50, 18 June 2008 (MST) Ah no don't do that! I was just trying to get my points across. These are all just how I FEEL a HF game should be ran, it isn't the only way and certainly not the "right" way. You should do what is okay with the whole group and what you find fun to run. I've just been looking for a certain fantasy type game to play and was thinking maybe this is it. In all reality (and no this was way before this conversation ever started!!!) I've been thinking about becoming an irregual in whatever game was ran after WW. I miss out on doing things with a group of friends due to going every Friday night, but who knows, that might not happen.

If no-one else cares about the loot system go ahead and use the point/exp way, I'd end up playing whatever the group does anyway. I'd be a wizard by the way.

--Edmiao 21:36, 18 June 2008 (MST)are you saying my buddy was a bad GM for giving me a firebreathing voral sword? we were in 4th grade!

--Gdaze 22:34, 18 June 2008 (MST) Phff, I gave some characters the SDF, HA!

BEN: well, I'M just saying that it really was just an idea. I'm not at all offended, I think your points are valid. I AM looking to create the trope-heavy, characteristic "high fantasy" game that everyone keeps talking about, and overall this conversation gave me some insight into what goes into that. I think that you (gabe) and dieter have strong ideas about what "fantasy" is. I also think that Ed has some ideas about what he wants to see in a fantasy game. I'm glad to have some of that on the table. If I run a fantasy game, I'd like it to be something everyone can get excited about. I'd be most excited about creating my own world, but that's not easy. I've got a good basis for one, I think, but I would also be ok with running straight up by-the-book WFRP or possibly EarthDawn. If I ran my own system, it would likely be Fantasy Hero, Gemini, or Dark Ages Vampire rules.
anyways, I've been thinking of other ways to do my "rapid advancement" scheme that lets people get xp and loot separate and still get lots of both without breaking the game. Hero's probably best suited for that, really.
so since there's one "nay" and one "meh" about the xp system I proposed, unless we get at least two "yay"s I'd say I will do it differently. System preferences? I know gabe said he liked the idea of using hero, and I'm generally leaning that way too.
OH! And for loot...your cards I like, Gabe, but I also have like ten stacks of magic item cards from warhammer fantasy battle. So that would be another great source for that sort of thing.

--Edmiao 08:27, 19 June 2008 (MST)two corrections to the above, ben. I was a "yay" on your xp system. Also, i don't have any firm ideas on what fantasy is; i have vague ideas that i'm not particularly attached to and am willing and eager to dive into whatever the gm comes up with.

One idea on solving gabe's resistance to the xp for loot but to maintain the idea of balancing loot with character points: give each character a "backback" which the person can carry a certain number of character points worth of loot. you can add whatever you find to the backback until you hit the limit. the limit could be raised over time; perhaps the limit would be 10 or 20% of your total character points at any given time. thus you wouldn't actually be sacrificing your ability to learn a new spell to pick up that scroll. but once you have 100 scrolls of sleep you can't carry a scroll of ubermight for more than one session without dropping a scroll of sleep.

GABE: Oh man I remember those cards, yeah, those would be sweet. Funny you should bring them up, as when I use to play fantasy battles (2nd ed I think?) I always thought how cool would these be an in RPG?

WHFRP might be fun, but I dunno, we just got done with it so having to restart the everything, again, not sure if I could but m'eh, maybe. Overall WHFRP is a very fun game and the setting is great.

I get the point of the exp - loot system, but like I said just not forz me. D&D actually has a really nice system for keeping loot on the level with characters. One way is giving low-end magic items charges per day, these could be easily converted over to hero.

ED!!! U wiki blocker!

Also... on the backpack... interesting idea. A bit video gamish, but I kinda like it...

--Dieter the Bold 11:36, 19 June 2008 (MST) I understand high fantasy as high magic and other races. That's pretty much it. Elves, dwarves, humans and lots of crazy magic everywhere. Anything else is negotiable. As for the XP system, I don't see any problems with it. Yeah, items can get stolen, but that's pretty much a GM-driven event, so if the GM never goes after your items, no real difference.

BEN: I think there would be a couple of mechanics to not make theft a total fuck you, as well. If what got stolen was a "basic item" (not magic, not master crafted, not attuned, etc), as soon as you were somewhere that you could replace it, you would just have to RP replacing it, and you'd get it back without having to pay the points again (assuming you didn't take "destitute" as a disad...but the group should have enough coin pretty quickly to buy basic gear). If it was something special...well, then you're going to have a very strong inclination to get it back...so go get the bastards that stole it! (just like with any OAF). I haven't worked out all the kinks yet...maybe I'll do some sort of intermediate thing.
what I like about this system is that it takes some ambiguity out of equipment and gives more control to the players. If you go into a town and want to buy, say chainmail, you can just make up where and how you buy it if you have the xp. If you don't, there doesn't happen to be a smith in town who can make chainmail. Does that make sense? Availability and whether you have enough gold is a function of the story progression, ie XP. So if you really want your character to have gear X, you can just save your points. The GM doesn't have to limit your access to it because everybody else gets the same points, so it won't be unbalancing.
Anyways, it sounds like there are elements of this idea that some people like, and elements some people don't like. I'll try to firm it up a bit, and post some details about what kind of world I'd run.

--Edmiao 12:09, 19 June 2008 (MST)the above i like, because there was nothing more annoying in wfrp than when you had lots of gold, wanted to buy some mail but couldn't find a freaking blacksmith who had any. which would be fine but then the hunt for chain mail took up a lot of game time.

GABE: While for some buys I guess it could be okay, I'd really like to avoid too much RPing out purchases.

BEN: what I'm saying is, if you have the XP, baring major problems (ie, restricted powers, magic items, etc), you automatically get what you want...RP it out or not. If you just want to say "I buy some friggin' chainmail, neener, neener, neener", then you do and that's it, as long as you have the xp. you earned the currency, you get to spend it. Since its a universal currency, the only control point (for the most part, there are always exceptions) is its distribution. When you have multiple systems of reward, each one needs to be policed separately. I'm ok with doing that, I just thought it might be interesting NOT to do it.

--Edmiao 12:57, 19 June 2008 (MST) yes! gabe, you see the beauty of the xp or character point backpack for lootz! no RPing out purchases. spend more time on interesting things. when you are spending hard earned cash, there is incentive to haggle, this takes RP time and contributes nothing to interesting storylines. with xp or character point backpacks, there is no haggling, hurray! less time talking to npc merchants, more time on plot and character development. all hail ben the genious gm!

Gabe: Eh, a flawed argument Ed. Its the GM who decides if the haggling will be RPed out or not. When I GM it is, make a sales pitch if you want or don't want, either way roll haggle. No back and forth RPing to buy an item. (Unless it was a VERY important item like a rare book needed for the adventure as that would contribute to the over-all story, a long interaction over armor does not in my view.) So that said, a lot of these fall on the GM anyway... if the GM wants every purchase to take five minutes then well, that is the GM, not the game or system.

Also, there SHOULD be incentive to take the haggle skill, otherwise why have it? It removes a type of playable character. But like I said, it is the way haggling is handled by the GM that matters, I don't have a problem with using the haggling skill.

BEN: that's a very good point, actually...but think about this. Normally, social characters are second tier. What if characters that were good at haggle, trading, politicking, etc, could decrease the cost of XP improvements? They'd be worshipped by the rest of the group.
It does sort of come down to the GM, but I think that in our group different players really like different things. I like to RP out my stuff, even if I get nothing out of it (in terms of gold/points/etc) and make everybody sit around for 10 minutes shaking their heads. Ed prefers to get his shit and kill hisself some biatches. This system gives everyone equal benefit regardless of what their style is, and allows people to skip or draw out the interaction as much as they want (then again, any system can be made to do that, I just think this encourages it). Also, there is the problem of availability and hunting for items. As a GM, I've always had a really hard time deciding what sorts of "stuff" is available or unavailable in a given town. In PA we had some fun tables, and I'm sure I could track some down or make some, but that's a LOT more work than doing it this way. This way, even if you are in the tiny little hamlet of shitfuckville-over-wensleydale, population 8.3 (quadri-amputee), there just HAPPENS to be a traveling arms merchant in town who can sell you the chainmail you want, provided you have the XP. In a gold system, for instance, a wizard wants a rare tome. The barbarian wants a bigger, heavier stick to bash people with. Say both cost 10 gold (its a BIG stick. With a bronze skull on the end. yeah, yeah, and a big nail in the skull's forhead...yeah, yeah, and then the cheat comes in on his keyboard and is like booopbooopboopboopboop, "and the dragon comes in the....NIIIIGGGGGHHHHTTTT!!!!!"). The barbarian can probably get his stick in any town with a half competent blacksmith. The Wizard probably has to go to a town with 25,000+ people. I understand that again, the GM can mitigate these things just fine, but often that leads to the perception that somebody is getting unfair advantages.

GABE: Um, in a money system you can either haggle or just buy it too. I don't see how this system encourges it.

If you want the players to be able to buy anything, just make it that way. I want to buy chainmail, okay the blacksmith has some, its this much. I want to try and get it down. Do you have haggle? Sure at half. Do you want to try a sales pitch? No, I'll just roll. You make it, you get 5 gold off.

Or if you can't decide on rarer items, roll a die, 1 and 2 they gotz it, otherwise, nadda.

If haggling is THAT important in a exp buy system, then everyone is just going to drop 3-5 points on that skill.

Again, I'm not seeing this system as solving anything that a GM couldn't do in any system.

Also Ed was saying it solved the haggling RP problem, which I said it didn't.

BEN: well, given that we have no data either way, I'm willing to concede that the system would be unlikely to fix anything. I also think that Jason is right that experiments are best reserved for one shots or short-shots, so it's probably risky using this system for anything approximating a midlength or full length campaign. Regardless, I agree with Jason that there needs to be some limit to "stuff" in any game where acquiring "stuff" is important (as it is in most games, incidentally), and I will come up with some sort of mechanic for this. I will try to spell it out in as much detail as possible since I know people get upset if things like that are misrepresented.
I don't want people to be able to "buy anything". XP is valuable, as you point out, far more valuable than gold because it can be used to buff your dude. Also, although regardless of what sort of "stuff" system I use xp will be relatively plentiful, it is much easier to regulate than how much gold/material wealth characters accumulate, because it's a metaphysical quantity doled out by the GM: you can't just strip your world of saleable goods, which players will hoard if they think there is any benefit to be gained from it. I think (although I have no proof), that this system could mitigate that.
likely, I will use some slightly more complex version of your dice rolling system, based on the size of a settlement. Since I don't have time to make like 50 tables, it'll be relatively arbitrary but equally applied to everything of similar rarity.

GABE: By buy anything I was refering to how you didn't want to come up with rarity and the characters may buy any normalish item they want with exp. At least you stated they would earlier. So now I'm a bit confuzzled!