User talk:Dieterthebold

--Edmiao 09:09, 10 June 2008 (MST) not quite sure what to say about all that, which of our past games have you really been into, dieter?

--Matts 11:47, 10 June 2008 (MST)More specifically, which kinds of games get you enthused?

--Edmiao 12:04, 10 June 2008 (MST) and is there a difference between genre and themes. like you could have politicking in ancient times (current WFRP) or politicking in current times. so like WW if investigational theme, WFRP is politics and scheming theme.

BEN: I think ed's distinction is a good one: is genre more important or "game/GM style?". Along the same lines, what sorts of opportunities have to exist for your character for you to enjoy RPing? You've mentioned before that you like "doing": as in, performing maintenance/construction activities that function more in a support role and are typically longer term. Unfortunately, speaking from experience, its difficult for a GM to extrapolate this kind of experience much beyond a few dice rolls (I've tried, and have often gotten stumped) and its therefore an easy trap to fall into to just let the maintenance/support character roll a couple dice and then pass over them while other people do things with more immediacy. Have you experienced and/or do you have any ideas how, if there aren't particular types of things that draw you in, these sections of time devoted to your characters might be more fulfilling/interesting?

--Gdaze-- He's a witch! BURN HIM!

--Brandon 13:34, 10 June 2008 (MST) I'm not sure if this escapes the problems Ben has brought up, but I had a thought that might be up your alley, Dieter. You could be, um, Viho's computer. I'm imagining you as either an incredibly advanced AI system, a purely psychic entity housed in a mechanical system (the "Ghost in the machine" like in the second set of Amber novels), or perhaps a psychic individual who, because of some trauma or somesuch thing, had to be permanently "built-in" to an enormous computer network - like the mothership in Homeworld. In a lot of ways, this would be along the lines of the "finding things" character you talked about on Friday, only its powers would work along more traditional networks (satellites, databases, etc.). This would allow you to be a support character extraordinaire, and would also free you from a physical form, thus allowing you to multitask more effectively. In other words, it would relieve some of the issues that happen when your support character decides to do something crucial and longterm (repairing the ship, doing research, etc.), and everyone else runs around doing immediate things and hogging up all of the attention. You could also have a number of physical manifestations (holographic projections, drones, robots, etc.) so that you could participate in combat and whatnot. It's like the ultimate Rigger archetype (from Shadowrun), tied in with an uber-detective, with your "fingers" in all of the pies. It might be fun to both design and to play. You could easily create a hacker and/or physic nemesis who tries to fuck with your knowledge acquisition. Let me know what y'all think.

--Edmiao 13:47, 10 June 2008 (MST) ben was telling me about his conversation with deiter about what each of our "player archetypes" is. I was trying to think of a character that would be built around the deiter archetype, and i think brandon has hit the nail on the head. bravo! now does deiter like it?

--Dieter the Bold 14:29, 10 June 2008 (MST) I've pretty much been into all the games. Even Gemini, except towards the end. Of course I was into some more than others, but WW and the upcoming Supers are the only ones that I've actually not looked forward to. WW simply because of the setting (pack of rabid dogs with all the "fun" of pack-psychology and society), Supers because I'm having trouble getting into the right mindset for it. I can't figure out if it's real-world gritty with a little silver age spandex or silver age with a little grit to it. There seems to me to be an imbalance of either. So I have no idea how to even begin approaching the setting for creating a character. I'm more comfortable with truly super Supers, but with a dash of realism so it's not all Infinite Crisis or whatever; or truly real heroes, but with a dash of supers (leaning towards occult, honestly: psychics, mysterious powers, dark forces, etc,. etc.). So, I will say there remains hope for Supers, but it's a slim one at best. As for Ed's distinction, there is a difference for me. I don't care what theme you run in WW, I'll hate the genre. There are some GM styles that I just don't roll well with, too. So, Supers is mostly an issue with the genre (I can't figure out what it is; it's bridging a mental divide that I am unable to cross) and a little bit with theme (still not sure what it is, and it seems really tied in with the genre). That's it for now. I'll post more later once I've gotten some more work done.

The Brandon idea is most intriguing. I'll think on it some more. Immediate concerns are: free-will (think Garcon from PA), personal motivations, and, to a lesser degree, arch-nemesis. But very intriguing.

--Gdaze-- I personally like super supers too. I've been reading a lot of comics lately which has helped me really get into it all, want to borrow some? If you want to be totally free willed why not just be an Alien Computer? Kinda like Brainiac?

--Gdaze-- So just to keep me from being the odd man out, I'd like to tie Dieter's character maybe more to mine so we both come in together? An intereting take on Brandon's idea is that he was somehow made INTO a data stream, he jumps from computer to computer and perhaps has a body he built himself via various hacking (shipped a bunch of different parts to a factory or something like that). Also would be a great way to tie us into Viho has we could say he was one day just exploring and happened upon Viho's network (which he was much impressed with). I would have met him and fealt like here is someone who kinda understands me. I dunno, just more ideas for you Dieter and group.

--Dieter the Bold 15:42, 10 June 2008 (MST) That's one option, but then I'm still confused as to the real vs. the super. And call me silly, but I find occult more easy... no, not more easy, just more self-contained, than aliens in terms of having as part of a "real" campaign. Being an alien would expand the campaign world too much, bringing in a variety of considerations I wouldn't want to have to think about. And I would think about them, since this is the kind of person I am. But I like your enthusiasm.

What intrigues me most about Brandon's idea is the lack of body. More like a true energy being who moves in a different dimension and can temporarily manifest in different physical objects. It also appeals because it's a non-physical support character, so if I, Dieter, didn't want to come to a session, the character could easily still be there and act as the perfect NPC for Matt to use as he wanted. Which is a plus for me feeling like I'm not sure I want to go full-time on Supers.

--Gdaze-- Totally don't be aliens then! I jsut thought it'd be cool and give you more free will if you were a data stream and happened upon Viho's computer system, that way you get your independence!

--Matts 15:51, 10 June 2008 (MST)To clarify: Super Heroes is about truly super people. Everyone needs to have an ability that is well beyond the scope of a normal person. I'm running this game because I like how super hero stories have a mythic scope but a human scale.

I don't know if I can describe it better than that. The game will be about battling villains, personal demons, saving New York, saving the world, etc. I'm doing my best to come up with comic-book-y villains that fit pretty well-defined archetypes but have some interesting flair.

I'll be honest, the theme is tightly coupled to the genre.

JASON: Why dont you just be an electrical 'organism' that can live inside/take control of any electronic machine? You could have a physical body, but that isnt 'you'. Its a vehicle you travel in, like you are a symbiote living in an automaton. If your vehicle were destroyed, you could jump to any suitable electronic device within range. Your current (pun intended) manifestation just needs to come in contact with another suitable donor and you can switch to that. Easy, straight-forward, and sneaky-Dieterlike as hell. Heck, to throw in some occult you can be the product of an obsessed occultist computer programmer who channeled some demon while creating an AI device in an attempt to make the super virus, and you gained consciousness somehow and VOILA, super-Dieter.

--Gdaze-- Occultist computer programmer who channels a demon while creating an AI device... AWESOME.

JASON: It also have a built in nemesis of the computer programmer, and you can be an eradicator of supernatural evil on the side, so a good excuse to be gone. You could then link yourself to Viho by having his computer be the path to sentience, it somehow detected your potential self inside the virus and unscrambled it, creating you. This makes you connected and loyal to Viho, brings in a nemesis and gives you a good reason to skip out when necessary. You could also reinvent yourself often by switching bodily manifestations, a la Cabesa's first character.

--Brandon 16:46, 10 June 2008 (MST) Good ideas, all. You certainly don't have to be of alien origin in order to be a data stream-type entity. I like the occult angle, but if it feels weird to you, you could just be a badass AI, a la Ghost in the Shell, who travels through computers and manifests in different bodies, etc. I'm not sure I see the worry about free will so much. It seems that one of your defining characteristics would be that you have free will even though you are composed of the sort of thing that usually doesn't. This line of thought might even arguably be a "theme".

I definitely see your worry about personal motivation, though. We would have to find a really good reason why you are interesting in playing a support role for a bunch of supers. I imagine we could think of a number of them (indeed, some have already offered suggestions in the above).

--Dieter the Bold 16:52, 10 June 2008 (MST) I'm more intrigued by really being a disembodied intelligence who communicates via devices. Like literally no set physical body, but I could do some things with properly advanced vehicles, PDAs, all other electronic devices. Maybe an actual robot suit at the far end, but I think that would be a fun limitation to have. As for Matt: I totally get the goal, but how is it going to feel? I mean, are we going to have some mythic story, but we have all these normals doing normal things around us and making us feel really weird to be of such a different type, or are we so wrapped up in this whole mythic structure that besides the abstract (millions will die if you fail), we don't actually have anything to do with the little people? And free will is just an issue when you have some kind of electronic character. Technically they have to follow programming, therefore commands. I'm not sure this is the kind of set-up I would want. I'm fine with physical limitations, or maybe a mental one vs. my arch-nemesis, but I wouldn't want to be constructed as having to follow someone in the groups' orders. So, cool with loyal to Viho or whomever, not cool with being a (at some level) obedient construct.

--Edmiao 17:03, 10 June 2008 (MST) i don't think you'd have to make him follow programming/orders. think self aware AI with its own wants, desires, motivations, etc.... you are a super duper suped up computer that has gone beyond programming and has free will. In this game, my impression was that heroes that have the innate desire to help the innocent would be a good underlying theme of the group, correct matt or no?

--Dieter the Bold 17:11, 10 June 2008 (MST) Let me rephrase it this way: Are we like (1) Fantastic Four/Spider-Man (lone superheroes in the world but everyone seems to like us and be all cool, for the most part), (2) Batman (where no one really knows too much about us, passes us off as kinda' a myth, but those in the know thinks us a threat), or (3) X-men (feared and reviled)? I'm all for helping people and the like, but a lot of the mythic stuff superheroes do is only vaguely connected with "helping people". Usually, saving the planet from alien domination or destruction. There are definitely lots of "help small group or lone individual", and definitely guardians of a specific place stories, but in terms of mythic, at least how I understand it, it really doesn't have too much specifically to do with particular people.

JASON: I dont know anything about your game theme, but I do have an understanding of the game mechanics of this idea. When I said symbiote and organism before, I meant those as abstractions. In reality, your character is an extremely powerful and elegant collection of machine code that exists within the electronic framework of whatever device it inhabits. You could make a robot body for convenience, or you could jump into one of the PCs phones and be in their pocket, that wouldnt matter. In game terms you have Mind Control vs electronic class of minds, automaton power doesnt take stun from physical attacks (the host device does, however), and Extra Dimensional Movement only through electrical circuitry. You could hack into opposing computers (using mind control), sabotage devices carried by enemies (Body Drain vs electronic devices) or look through security cameras (Clairsentience).

--Edmiao 17:34, 10 June 2008 (MST) matt wrote: "Theme-driven: The best heroes are quasi-mythical, and are about something - they have themes. Heroes for this game will have primary themes, the essential story of the character. The theme of the overall game is about "outsiderness" (since everyone will be neccessarily different), either fore- or backgrounded by the intersection of the themes of all the heroes. Which is to say, I'm sure the group's heroes will share some very interesting themes, and I'd rather have the game be about stuff the players have built into their characters than something I've arbitrarily decided." Thus, i would interpret this to be, if you want to play batman darker setting, make batman. if you want to play lighter, make spider man. He will adapt the game world to you. I would interpret that the world will react to the characters based on their actions. if they are heroes then they will be seen as heroes. if they wreak damage all over the city blithely during combat then they might be viewed in a darker tone. Matt, this correct?

--Matts 17:48, 10 June 2008 (MST)Perfect, thanks Ed!

--Dieter the Bold 18:02, 10 June 2008 (MST) Okay, definition understood. Explanation needed on how, as random example, my Captain Marvel character's theme will be fitting in with Gabe's Daredevil's character's them and Ed's Tony Stark theme? (I know those are totally not (except for maybe Ed) the heroes we're theming our characters off of). I'm still seeing a disconnect between group loyalty and activities (which can be simply arranged) vs. the actual themes (I must crawl among the scum of the sewers to protect that little boy over there vs. I fight the grand Illuminatus in a battle of the minds for control over the Worldstone and the fate of humanity). I hyperbolize because I'm not sure how to shrink it down to more specifics. Also, Jason, you're nailing it on the head for what I'm thinking. Thanks, and awesome.

--Matts 21:23, 10 June 2008 (MST)What you're describing is basically the JLA or the Avengers - How does the agenda of a Norse God line up with that of an abusive scientist and a cold war relic? The answer, at least as I see it, is this: Each story arc, a hero could be highlighted - Batman calls in the JLA cavalry when the heat gets high in Gotham; Aquaman can't just can't take it anymore and has to be retrieved from the depths of the sea; Wonder Woman is castigated by her Amazonian whatevers and drags the team along on a vision-quest.

Translated to the context of this game, think of it this way. I'm gonna take all the themes for all the characters and put them in a bag. Each story arc, I'll pull out themes until I feel I've got a good basis for a story, choose some villains for it, and build a scenario. As the game progresses, a history will develop, and I'll pull from that too.

So, to directly answer your question: Sometimes the group will be examining the ravages of capitalism courtesy of Tony Stark, and sometimes the group will be slogging through the mud protecting homeless babies. Hopefully, Captain Marvel gets some needed perspective out of helping clean up the streets, and Daredevil can't believe it when he helps defeat Proctor Maximus Devourer Of Worlds.

If everyone's theme was the same, then every session would be the same. I'm sort of forcing at least one common theme (you are different from the common man), but to me the more themes the better, kind of like how a five color deck is fun: the interactions between discrete elements can be surprising and entertaining.

--Gdaze 21:28, 10 June 2008 (MST) Yeah... we are a super TEAM, thus I believe there should be a theme that covers all of us kind of, while allowing times for each person's own theme to come to the front. As long as we aren't always just digging stuff up all the time! Kekeke.

JASON: In response to Matt, I dont know if this will matter or not, but that isnt how JLA or Avengers work. If Batman needs help getting Bane out of Gotham, and he calls on Wonder Woman to help him out, that happens in Batman or Detective Comics. In the JLA series, which is more like your RPG, any story arc offers something at interest to all of the JLA members which participate in the story. In other words, something aligned thematically with all of them. I have thought about this a lot, and I think its something we missed when we kept trying to connect our characters strongly when games began, and I think Gemini is a perfect example of this. Characters were tied with other characters but NOT with the theme of the campaign or current story. Characters didnt have reasons to participate in particular story lines, so instead they broke off and created their own. One thing my current Deadlands game is showing me is that it doesnt matter if the characters are connected in the beginning, and maybe it is less than necessary because they can become connected more strongly through play, but what does matter is if they are thoroughly interested in the plotlines and have a strong reason to participate. Characters need a reason to be part of the plots much more than they need a reason to be around one or more of the other characters. In the one example of a game where we never wavered, the original Champions game, the characters were connected together by family, but that was meaningless to most of the characters because they didnt grow up together. Instead, they all had the common goal of doing right by the family patriarch and uncovering the family burial grounds before evildoers could ravage it. This unity of purpose is what makes the game work well.

--Edmiao 12:29, 11 June 2008 (MST) word

BEN: I think Jason's comment is very insightful. I hope that we can turn that into some practical advantage for our group.

--Gdaze-- Well what hasn't already been said, I think Jason hits home with this point. I think perhaps thats what makes Werewolf nice, fight the wurm, group unifies to do so. Of course in Space Opera games this is much harder. Really though, good point Jason.

--Edmiao 14:41, 11 June 2008 (MST) Agreed, ww the group is united more than most games. the current theme for supers is "you are all different from norms" perhaps we should have something in the motivation department as well.

--Dieter the Bold 14:46, 11 June 2008 (MST) Jason has a most excellent point. I think if I can feel comfortable that there is a group theme (i.e., there is some goal we all want and that makes us want to work together to achieve it regardless of background or connections), I could go with the genre. Jason, would you mind shooting a short list of general powers and modifiers that might match the powers we've been discussing? I could use a little help in getting the character from concept to "reality".

JASON: Do you have hero designer? If so, I will create a character with tons of powers, and you can pare it down to ones you like.

--Gdaze-- Yes, I agree with Ed and Dieter. I mean I believe we can all be different and still have an overall group theme. I think it should even be a group theme "you are all different" due to the fact we are some of the few heroes in the world. I don't mind having some "issues" being about a single character's problems/motivations. Also we don't want to fight the same enemies everytime, but some recurring ones would be great. Heck we may (and should) even end up fighting other "heroes" as every super hero does at one point or another. What are some other ideas for a team motivation?

--Edmiao 15:27, 11 June 2008 (MST) "i'm super, let me help you non super people." is the classic one.

JASON: Consider also that your characters goals/themes dont need to be equivalent, they just need to be similarly aligned. This may create more work for the GM, but it also creates a more fluid and interesting storyline. If each character has a primary theme P and two minor themes M1 and M2, a storyline could align with character 1's P, character 2's P, character 3's M1 and character 4's M2.

Example: Using the previous abstraction, character 1 might have a P of 'Protect Innocents', character 2's P is 'Avenge Wrongdoing', character 3's M1 is 'Root out corruption in NY' and character 4's M2 is 'Free the unjustly imprisoned'. The story could be about investigating the destruction of the twin towers. All of these goals can be worked in to this story.

BEN: it's a pity you don't play with us anymore, Jason :).

JASON: I often miss it myself.

--Dieter the Bold 18:23, 11 June 2008 (MST) I do not have Hero Designer, sorry. And I'm fine with helping people, but I need a little more focused of a theme, as there are infinite ways to go about that. World hunger, diseases, violently overthrowing repressive regimes, etc. I'll start brainstorming a background that may or may not be incredibly intertwined with everyone else's, and trust that we'll all settle on some theme/goal that makes me want to work with all of you as best I can despite any lack of shared background.

--71.216.15.253 19:04, 11 June 2008 (MST)Pick a theme you like, out of the infinite grab-bag of themes out there. I don't want this game to suffer from the "indecision blues", so for the vast bulk of stories I'm thinking about, the situations will come to you. So if your character simply has an interest in heroism, his motivation should be sufficient. As long as he's motivated to put things to rights when Gigantic Earl storms into New York and swallows the mayor, I don't anticipate "unity issues". If he doesn't particuarly care about the mayor or the collateral damage Earl will doubtless do to downtown, that's where there's a problem.

--Edmiao 09:23, 12 June 2008 (MST) you know jason, if you do miss the BnD RPG group, we are starting a new supers game quite soon......

JASON: Yes, I have noticed that! And while I miss it, and often wish I were participating, the group is still much too large for my tastes, and I am trying to move away from gaming and towards role-playing. Gaming seems to be something a lot of people in this group really enjoy.

--Edmiao 12:20, 12 June 2008 (MST) Just admit it, you want us back....biatch.

--Gdaze 13:18, 12 June 2008 (MST) Move away from gaming towards role-playing? You mean like board games as opposed to RPGs? OR a different way to play RPGs? And its cool, but remember, you ever even want to NPC or something we always gotz the room!

BEN: my interpretation would be that he's trying to go for more narrativist, and less (particularly) gamist or even simulationist games. That's cool, and I do actually agree that we have a strong gamist streak in our group, as well as some very simulationist leaning players. I can imagine things might still get very frustrating for you Jason: I think we will all just have to lament, and game together in one shots n' shit.

JASON: Ben is correct. I noticed a while back that some things really bothered me, but these were things that werent particularly unreasonable, and that other players really enjoyed. For instance, looting of all enemies and maximizing every possible attack/defense stack. The combats become an exercise in dice rolling if every attack is the same max attack. To me, thats what video games are for. Roleplaying is about developing a good story. Characters do fun and interesting things, not necessarily the thing that does the most damage or has the best probability of hitting. I can just meddle from afar and show up when I have an open night, then my nuisance-age is mitigate for all.  ;-)

--Edmiao 09:32, 13 June 2008 (MST) gabe has promised us a suprise one shot for tonight..... magic starts at 6pm.

--Dieter the Bold 10:19, 15 June 2008 (MST) Jason, could a meet-up be arranged sometime this week in the evenings to create a character? I think you're the most knowledgeable of the group in the HERO system and I'm really not sure how to create what we're all discussing. I'll come with concrete powers and limitations so it's not too much of a "20 Questions" for you. I'm happy to hop a bus to your place after work.