Difference between revisions of "Talk:Ben's Gaming Maniphilosophesto"

Revision as of 19:51, 29 October 2009

--Gdaze 15:10, 28 October 2009 (MST) You are very trusting of players.

Edmiao in that you think the players will try to deliberately derail the game, or inadventently will derail the game?

BEN: since tone of voice is not transmitted on the wiki, I'm assuming Gabe is being sarcastic...? And that Ed is seconding that opinion...?
I would hope players wouldn't deliberately derail the game...it's essentially impossible to prevent and you might as well just play a series of one shots or switch games if they do do it. as far as inadvertently...I guess I would answer that as long as everyone has the story as their central concern, a derail should be largely impossible, since if the players are acting consistently then they are just making their contribution to the story.
I would say that in champions I was not trusting of players at all. I was very controlling. I would also say, however, that I have been very trusting of players in OAAAA: but perhaps you disagree?

--Gdaze 16:33, 28 October 2009 (MST) No. I just think characters actually do like to try to upset the game. And on the page you said that the GM should trust the players. Too much control is bad, but is also needed. Not all players of course, but sometimes, some people are just like fuck this, lets blow everything up. Or, lets see how I can make things harder.

Which I guess could add to story. GM to me could mean Guide Master.

BEN: oh, I agree completely. I would argue that I have been, in fact, TOO trusting of players in OAAAA. But I'm not going to wax (in)eloquent about that right now, since I'm trying to avoid specifics. But yes, you are totally right, and that's why I say that player trust of the GM is the most important thing: if the GM doesn't get buy in for some authority (and some resultant authoritarianism), he/she can't do his/her job of stewarding the story.

JASON: Characters never upset or try to upset the game. Only players can do that. A character by its very nature does not know it is part of a game. Players on the other hand are humans pretending, and therefore can be petty, whiny, jokey or any of a million other eys that can be very disruptive.

--Gdaze 23:34, 28 October 2009 (MST) [1] Now I do hope the sarcasim is coming through in that.

I don't think you've been too trusting of players in OAAAA. You tend to like to have NPCs that shine more then the players. In OAAAA we are suppose to become EPIC, right? And we haven't actually done too much to derail anything. Least far as I can tell. I mean we meta trying to influence the world, but that was kinda the point. OAAA does have a lot of power though for the players. I'm actually pleased it has gone so well with all the power. Like take my guy, yeah he does a shit ton of damage, but he can be taken out pretty easily. Heck, Dieter even got head shot'd! And like you even told me "This orc won't learn magic" so I was like, okay, but might as well train him for something else. I do like the "Just so you know" info bits, they help move the game along.

BEN: hmmm, the NPC observation is interesting, and probably valid...but then again, do players prefer every NPC to be a mook? I guess when I play I like to meet NPCs that impress me, or even ones that I love to hate. Also, I like to have NPCs that challenge me. But I certainly agree that I like to make exciting, and occassionally powerful, NPCs.

Edmiao are we still playing OAAAAAAAA, by the way? the last session was august 7th, about three months ago.

--Gdaze 09:51, 29 October 2009 (MST) No, of course not everyone should be a mook. And NPCs like Cloud are fine, maybe just not at the end of the night! Besides, even AS powerful as he was, it was a close fight. And meeting a cool/powerful one here or there is fine. But if you meet one every few adventures, and spend time watching an NPC do something, while still a story it becomes one that doesn't invovle the players as much. So again, not everyone should be a mook, but also there shouldn't be tons of amazing NPCs.

And yeah, whats up with OAAAAAAAAAA, I thought it was cuz Ben was on rotation? Or whatever that is called. I know I was suppose to do MA to help fill in, but too much shit happened in my personal life.

BEN: we can go back to OAAAA whenever. I assumed that we would play kingmakers for a while, since OAAAA was at a good stopping point, with the second "book" being finished. If people are hankering for it, we can run one/some sessions again.

JASON: I think the problem with a lack of rules is that its a form of arbitrary that is less fun. No one likes to be dismissed out of hand. But, somehow, its ok to get your head ripped off if thats what the dice say. Dice are arbitrary without prejudice, and a GM has prejudice, even if its not always evident. Players do not like to feel powerless. During Champions when we had to spend months chaperoning the super-kids who were inherently better than all of us at everything we wanted to do, that got old. Why were we even necessary? It felt like a side show more than a story about us. While this has nothing to do with rules or dice per se, it is an example of the arbitrary nature of GMing. A lack of rules leaves you in this situation where the system gives you nothing and expects everything in return. You as a player are expected to craft all of these details for a great character and the system has no bias towards anything. One reason I have always liked Hero even after all the times it has wronged me so is that character generation is FUN. There are all these things it has given you ways to do, things I probably would not have considered on my own. A great (or even good) system facilitates ideas. Good source materials are more about the source and less about the mechanics. A system that is too simple doesnt help you when youre stuck, but, conversely, it also doesnt hinder you when youre on a roll.

--Gdaze 12:56, 29 October 2009 (MST) Very interesting points there on dice vs GM prejudice Jason. I had never thought of it like that, and the example about being head shot is very well taken. You know character generation is fun in HERO, but maybe its too in depth?

I'm liking the M&M system from what I've seen, but making a character can be a bit annoying because their are limits on saves, and certain stats up certain saves so without some software it has a lot of going back and forth. At least it is all just addtion and subtraction though.

Edmiao totally agree about making characters in Hero system, it is fun! obviously, look at Viho, a guy, 4 suits, 8 followers and a base. i made 14 characters essentially. hero is inherantly breakable with regards to balance, so fits in with ben's maniphesto as well. its working well for OAAAA.

BEN: I agree with you Jason, and I don't want to turn this into a semantic argument: I think you are basically filling in details on what I believe as well. I don't think there should be NO rules, I just think that they are of secondary importance. The rules help create balance, objectivity in crisis situations, and they can add to the story by taking it in directions nobody had thought of. But you said all of that. And I also like parts of hero...just not all of it. I think it is absolutely the best system for our group, but I would not call it the absolute best system for Ben the GM or Ben the Player. I certainly like it enough to use it again: I'd call it my staple system.

--Gdaze 14:02, 29 October 2009 (MST) Whats weird for me is that I don't like using the Hero system for actual Supers RPGs. I don't think it handles it well. But I like it for stuff like fantasy, sci-fi, stuff like that.

Edmiao really? i think it worked pretty well for supers, albeit a smidge slow in the combat zone, but matt's card thing helped with that.

JASON: I dont love Hero anymore. It can get really slow, for sure, in given situations. I think its workable most of the time. Gabe has a good point that I cant agree with or disagree with. Ben seems to want some very specific things, and that is awesome. Its great to have an understanding of where you want to go. The reason we have rules, I think, is so that when a player does something the other players and the GM have a framework they can use to agree on an outcome. At least that is true during the actual game. Most of the time its just friends talking and listening. But when we need this framework we dont want it to get in the way. Outside of game time we want this nebulous framework to provide us a basis we can use to visualize our characters and where we want them to go. Before the game starts its all about using a common language to quantify stuff so we can create characters that fall within the correct parameters. It seems like to really 'hit' with a system, it needs to do three distinct, very disconnected things, and do them all pretty well, for us as players and GMs to get maximum enjoyment. Its not an easy thing to do.

--Gdaze 15:50, 29 October 2009 (MST) Eh, gone over it before. Have to really keep an eye out for balancing issues. Seems more concerned with what the points do, and not in giving it a comic book feel. Seldom in Hero Supers battle have I fealt like I was in a comic book.

Totally WIKI BLOCKED!

BEN: just agreeing with what Jason has put down, although I don't think what I want is that specific. but maybe it is.

JASON: Gabe, I dont think its the systems responsibility to make the game feel like a comic book. In fact, I dont think its possible for a system to do such. Its the systems job to stay the hell out of the way so the GM and characters can make the game feel like a comic book.

I know you dont think the combats in games are comic book-like, yet that would continue in M&M, which does a whole lot of things poorly. I remember you saying that protagonists dont get knocked out all the time in comics, thats because of the choices they make. If the good guys and bad guys just stood there and slugged it out every combat, they would be KOed all the time. In comics one side or the other is almost always attempting to accomplish a goal, and then when they get it locked up, they split. All the while they are quipping with one another, which is the actual conflict.

Ask yourself this. If evil big baddie blows up the support beams on a building so it is sure to collapse soon, what do you do? In a comic, all the good guys run to save them, then the bad guys get away. Moo-hooo-hah-ing all the way. In an RPG where there isnt comic buy in, the players spend 10 minutes discussing who should go save the building in such a way that the remaining characters can still beat the bad guys and collect all the <insert whatever is important here>. No amount of system can cure that.

Edmiao good point, jason. I think gabe might bring in a point about killing attacks in Hero and how non-comic booky they are, but for that, such attacks would not be bought in certain comic book genres. the players would know that if they think about the genre and buy in, and the GM should police that and remind characters that killing attacks are not genre appropriate.

--Matts 17:51, 29 October 2009 (MST)The idea that I've seen in several systems (M&M and Savage Worlds) is to just say "the villain gets away" after he creates a situation for the players to solve, but to comp the players a bit for the letdown of not getting the villain. In Savage Worlds players get an extra Benny, and in M&M they get a Hero Point, both of which greatly impact a player's impact on the story.

But to get on-topic: The use of cleverness in games is something I struggle with. On one side, if the important thing is how creative a player's solution is, it allows for a lot of fun for that player, at the risk of marginalizing players who don't have a creative solution to the problem, and more or less makes story progression a matter of inspiration rather than a matter of one's character. On the other, if a character sheet is the final arbiter of what can and can't be done, the creativity is somewhat superfluous: "I talk him out of stabbing me, I want to roll my Fast Talk." Now, it's all well and good to say that "some mix of the two sides" is necessary, but my dilemna is this: creativity more or less flouts whatever system you've put in front of it, or at least the systems we like to use.

Hero lets you define a character along several axes, in great detail. It does not let you define how your character moves in a story, or what his or her narrative options are, unless your whole story consists of climbing on walls, blasting something, or whatnot. Its systems define some method of domination of the game world, and very little in the way of interaction with the game world.

A system like DitV or With Great Power... basically throws out a comparative rating system in exchange for explicitly defining narrative tools, so that instead of knowing that your blast is X strong, you know the relationships you interact with and the methods you use, but their ratings are more in terms of importance to the story.

I like the second group of systems; how do you reconcile them with the first group? If a player prefers to "hit something with his sword for d8 + strength bonus" instead of "wildly swinging his axe in a jilted rage", what's the middle ground?