Reboot Chat Archive

--Matts 16:33, 31 July 2007 (MST)Cleaned up the old discussion.

Two things: First, the group should have a relatively common goal, or better yet, shouldn't neccesarily have a goal. It's my job as the GM to ensure that the plot hooks the group collectively and the characters individually. It's your job when making a character to make my job possible. If your goal is "Rule the world", or "Turn the moon into my balls", then you'd better have ready for me more attainable short-term mechanisms by which I can hook your character, and you'd also better accept that such a grand goal may be out of the scope of this campaign (may be). If need be, I'll reccomend some Spiritual Attributes that make sense for your character and also hook in to the plot, though, you're free to change those at any point.

But I've got little tolerance for in-group squabbles, and the Western Empire, dangerous a place as it is, doesn't allow much room for discord. Fair warning; adventurers adventure together because the world is a dangerous place. Successful (ie alive) adventurers come to some base level of understanding quickly, because to argue a point about honor with bandits bearing down on you is as good as a buy-one-get-one-free coupon to Morr.

Second, you're all smugglers, right? Well here's your starting point, at least the starting point for the prologue: Wissenland is a haven for smugglers; ships that leave tilea are invariably taxed the ports they put into, but the passes over the mountains between Tilea and Wissenland and the Border Princes are innumerable. It's difficult, but sometimes worth it, to bring goods through the mountains rather than by sea, and it's also easier to avoid customs posts.

Kreutzhofen is a small town that serves as something of a smuggler's clearinghouse; goods are often purchased from freelancers here, or stockpiled by major operators, before shipping them downriver to Nuln and the large markets there. Word is, to anyone who listens hard enough, that there's a man there named Gunter Golbsfahren, and he needs some help working his ferries.

Feel free to riff on that stuff if working for a guy named Golbsfahren doesn't sound like what you want to be doing at the start of the prologue.

--Edmiao 10:42, 30 July 2007 (MST) Having not recieved any return input, I pose again the question of what kind of dudes are we?

• smugglers for illicit goods: really bad stuff like drugs and chaos artifact or chaos magic supplies.
• smugglers for illicit goods: not bad stuff, for example religous supplies from non-altdorf approved religions.
• smugglers of legitimate items avoiding tarrifs and taxes: fine goods from araby that are hard to find and taxed heavily, rugs, spices, jewelry.....
• Robin Hoodish: the noble smuggler bringing in some necesities of life to sell to poor folks who can't afford the huge taxes placed by the empire. medical supplies and educational materials are taxed at huge rates in order to keep the peasantry suppressed, and the group smuggles these and sell them at more affordable prices.
• dirty dock hands who will work for any old smuggler or pirate like Gunter Golbsfahren who will pay us coin, we care not for anything but getting a gold coin at days end.

--Matts 17:42, 31 July 2007 (MST)Illicit goods are:

• books of heretical or dangerous knowledge
• seditious letters or texts
• heathen religious items
• chaos artifacts(Though you don't want to smuggle those, believe me...)
• weapons(to ship weapons is something reserved only for the Imperial military; most weapons are smithed on-site in a town)
• psychoactive drugs
• poisons
• strange or exotic livestock (ie, baby manticores, tigers, crocodiles, etc)
• raw gold

Licit goods that generally get smuggled through Wissenland to avoid tarrifs:

• Wines (tilean wines are valuable and highly taxed to Reikland wines favored amongst the Inner Empire's nobles)
• Cheeses
• tobacco
• other spirits
• books (books are generally subject to thorough inspection at a customs point; the time of the scribe must be compensated, and sometimes the closest scribe is a week's journey distant)
• jewelry
• textiles
• livestock,especially horses (traditionally, the best horse from every 10 is the tax on horses; this keeps the breeding stocks of the Imperial Equites replenished)

--Dieter the Bold 11:04, 1 August 2007 (MST) I vote no animals, peoples, poison or chaos artefacts. I think a primary focus on 'licit-but-avoiding-tarrifs' smuggling would be nice, with a little of the illicit thrown in when the money's too good. Drugs and weapons seem like a (relatively) safe thing, gold and books seem like they could really call down the heat. I'm not too worried about dealing with the fuzz, but the Inquisition (heretical books) and Imperial spies (gold, maybe weapons) are more than I want to be tangling with. So I'd vote we're either an independent crew that engages in some collective bargaining to establish ground rules with Golbfahren, or we don't ask questions but discourage Golbfahren from using us to move certain items.

--Matts 13:49, 1 August 2007 (MST)To be clear, then, you're voting for "Smuggling but with scruples"? What sorts of scruples?

--Gdaze 14:27, 1 August 2007 (MST) Okay with everything under Licit goods. Others I am okay with raw gold, poisons (just as long as I don't have to put one in my pocket), books of heretical or dangerous knowledge, and psychoactive drugs.

Weapons seem too troublesome.

That is ver I stand.

Editted: But if we are gonna do animals I might have to redo a few skills...

--BenofZongo 15:52, 1 August 2007 (MST)[[Ignotus Peverell]: As far as I am concerned, and given the times, I believe it perfectly acceptable to transport whatever goods fetch the best coin for the lowest risk and time invested: a cost-benefit analysis is in order, I think. Regardless. I place my skills and services at the disposal of the Three Rivers Trading Company, LLC (aka, us) for whatever business, mean or grandiose, dangerous or bland, that the shareholders (aka, us) deem appropriate.

--Dieter the Bold 20:08, 1 August 2007 (MST) To be clear, I don't mean smuggling with scruples. Now, my views are currently being influenced by this game I've been reading a lot of, (Fading Suns), but I was thinking more along the lines of, if we get caught, what shit gets us jail time, maybe some lashings vs. shit that gets you killed or burned at the stake. Avoiding taxes, it's no joke, but they generally wouldn't kill you for that shit. Poisons, heretical works and currency manipulation, that shit will get you put in the Dead Book. If people want to roll that way, I'm down. But I'm just saying, after rolling with the big leagues in Gemini (jumpship) and having to swim with sharks like that, I wouldn't mind a little lower key kinda' crime. At least to start with. If we find tariff avoidance a fun, but not quite profitable enough endeavor, I wouldn't be opposed to upgrading. Just a little leary of jumping into the deep end right from the get-go.

So, having said I'm not avoiding shit out of moral concerns, what kind of moral course do we want to lay out? Some old lady sees us sneaking our shit through: Do we off her or not? We find out some weapons or poison we've brought in is going to a criminal element about to take out a local lawman and run wild throughout a village: not our problem? Town a few stops up river is starving, but has no money: do we drop 'em some food, ignore or make slaves of 'em? In short, are we Han Solo or Boba Fett?

--BenofZongo 20:30, 1 August 2007 (MST)I'd just like to point out that just like in gemini, I would wager that "big shit" will find us, rather than us having to go look for it. This is not, at least not beyond the prologue, going to be a game having much to do with us smuggling horses, or cheese, or whatever: at least that's my impression. I still think it's worth deciding on a feel for the group, of course, so it's still worth discussing the stuff you point out. I'm open to either interpretation: my character concept allows for either.

--Gdaze Boba Fett is a bounty hunter, Han Solo is a smuggler... those are so different! *long winded argument about star wars* And thus in closing your gay.

As for that, m'eh. Gotta make a buck.

--Edmiao 09:30, 2 August 2007 (MST) I'm for smugglers with a conscience. Only because I think that if we are smugglers in it for money, only money and more money, then any (or most) plots that Matt tries to hook us into will fall apart because of the "not my problem" attitude. I guess there would be plots that such characters would be interested in: building a criminal empire and such. is that what we want to play? I agree with ben that it is unlikely (and I think it would get boring) if we spend much game time doing actual smuggling. Nevertheless, this discussion is important because we need to get the moral compass of the group.

--Matts 10:40, 2 August 2007 (MST)If you guys want this game to be about building a criminal empire, then that's information I need to know soon. But the pertinent question is exactly what Ed said: what are your characters' hooks to get around the "not my problem" problem? I need to know what they are, and further, it'd be cool if your hooks had something in common.

--Gdaze -- Well money IS a good hook. Also just because we want money and maybe aren't the nicest people on the block does not mean we aren't going to care about ANYTHING going on around us. Evil doesn't ignore problems going on around it. What if the Empire is invaded? Well then we can smuggle things to the resistance. I would perfer the hook isn't the same as last time. I believe building up a criminal empire, or richs, is a goal in and of itself. I mean if the world is falling apart, whats wrong with carving out a piece of this freshly baked pie for ourselves? Persoanlly I'd love to actually affect the world, so builing up a power base would be totally fine by me and my vote goes towards it! Sure it may have criminal elements, but who doesn't, right right?

--Edmiao 11:29, 2 August 2007 (MST) personally i am against the motive: build criminal empire. i would like to try to interweave our backstories farther than the prologue also. Justin and I for the exemplars game were doing that, the characters were going to be brothers in law and their respective wives were twins with varioius plot twists: one was lost in time and space, the other merged with her husband. that kind of deeper history.

That said, my character is going to be a kind of lost soul. he comes out of the woods haggard and hungry and maybe one of you wants to take him in and nurse him back to health? this could be any time 1-20 years pre game. so your character could have been a child when your family took Elrin in.

--Gdaze -- Now now, a criminal empire might be what the EMPIRE labels it, it could very well benefit the people! It all matters how one sees it. Criminal Empire does not mean ruthless beatings... all the time, or mass killing or eatting babies. I don't mind wanting to protect a community for example, as long as that community pays proper respect to its protectors.

As for weaving our back stories out like that... I am not going to do that. Since we have no fate points I have no desire to pour time and effort into a guy who can just be picked off by a stray arrow that happens to get Ulric's fury. Besides Robert didn't have that big a story and look how he turned out!

Although, no offense Matt, but I do think we are going to request the fate point system back. If that happens then yeah I could see more developed characters, but really... to put all that effort into something and then just be picked off, suck. Yes combat is dangerous, but avoiding combat in WHFRP is like trying to avoid the sun. (By the way, I was very aware of how dangerous combat was already in WH, but Robert enjoyed fighting because it was one of the only things that allowed him to feel good, and if he got killed he didn't really care.)

--Matts 16:19, 2 August 2007 (MST)Dude, if you don't want to play in the game because of the rule change you can say so - I won't be offended. But if you're not going to put effort into playing the game, then it's unfair to ask for a say in how the terms of play are set. I'm putting effort into running this, a lot of effort, predicated on the idea that the game will be entertaining and meaningful in some respect. If you don't think you're going to enjoy it, you have as much right as anyone else to say so. But if you don't say so, and go into this less committed or interested than other players, that brings down the experience for everyone.

That said, I asked for your trust, namely, your trust that I'm not out to make you miserable. If the rules changes don't work, then we'll go to something that does.

Honestly, I don't think my combat changes are going to make things as dire as you say, but at this point it's all theory and no practice. But to assume I'm going to throw mandatory fights at you willy-nilly and kill your characters is sort of silly. Of course I'm aware of how lethal combat is, and of course I'm not going to force it on you just to be a dick. The fights in the game should be heightened, more interesting, and more meaningful as a result of the system, or at least that's the goal.

I'm not into running WFRP just so I can kill your characters and cackle over their corpses; I'm into running it because I want us as a group to have a good time and tell a cool story, which is the whole point of gaming.

--Edmiao 18:16, 2 August 2007 (MST) Gabe, i'm pretty set against matt's mods to WHFRP too, but he is dead on with the above. I mean, come on, how much time does it take to inverweave backstories? and it makes the characters more interesting and fun and will tend to prevent one character from killing the crew and others from breaking fingers.

--Dieter the Bold 19:01, 2 August 2007 (MST) Me manifesto: Izs not all 'bout the guilders and lucre, me hearties, izs about us livin' it up like kings!! We're all clever lads. No need for us to scrounge and starve like some pack of mongrels. The world's always had the "Av's" and "Aav' Nots", and I don't be seein' no reason not to be part o' the former. Toss a coin or scrap down to the wretches if ya' likes, but don't be gettin' too soft or they'll pull ya' right back down to grovel about in the muck, just like them. We're here to liv' tha' good life and screw all them other luckless sods. The world be a harsh place mates, and we needs ta' stick together and be strong enuff' to be takin' what we deserves!
Now I'm not completely 'eartless. I'm not sayin' we go 'round bashing peoples' 'eads in or knifin' old grannies just fer the laughs in it. We ain't no petty thugs or blarmy cultists tryin' ta screw the 'ol world into shambles. You stay outta' our way and we'll not be causin' ya' more grief than yer already gots. We're just, whazz the word, entrepreneurs! Yeah!! We makes our own rulez and followz our own wayz. You don't like it, SODD OFF and keep it ta yerselves. Cross us, and we'll give ya a second mouth to breav' from in yer neck.

--Gdaze Whoa there boys, ease up on those guns. I was just saying I wasn't going to make some huge arking advanced back story. Yeah I'm gonna make one, I even wrote up like 3 paragraphs for my guy's back story. I just meant I wasn't going to do soemthing like Ed's and Justin's where they had this connection with two wifes who were almost a story in and of themselves, I'll just let that stuff happen as it falls. So yeah I'll make a back story that connects people, but I don't really want to go too in depth. After all Robert never betrayed the main group. Never sold out, never even attacked anyone else (but was attacked by the others for squeeking... and for some reason people jumped to the conclusion that I had been possed by chaos even though nobody knew I had used the mask...) And his back story wasn't like too engrained ya know? Jeez, I guess I wans't too clear!

Anyway, I agree with Dieter, is that the way your doc talks? Scary to think he will heal us.

--Dieter the Bold 10:10, 3 August 2007 (MST) Yeah, I think I'll be working on my English accent. Think some of the more badass characters from either Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels or Snatch. He's combo sawbones (literally, in this milieu), drug merchant and hairstylist. I don't see him as a sadistic or evil criminal, just a hardened and unabashed one. He's not especially or unnecessarily violent, but if some stupid fat fuck needs to be given the beating of his life, he won't shy from it.

--Matts 11:15, 3 August 2007 (MST)Good to hear. I'm sorry I flipped out a bit there. I'm glad that you've got a backstory planned, gabe, and I think you guys have an excellently fitting morality established.

Here's a tidbit: I'm trying to come up with a real-world inspiration for Wissenland, and Kreutzhofen specifically. What are some famous small towns famous for smuggling?

--Dieter the Bold 22:56, 3 August 2007 (MST) I've been thinking, and I don't know of any. Sorry. No Streetwise skill. I can think of big cities, but no small towns. Something on the Mexican border, maybe?

--Matts 17:41, 4 August 2007 (MST)Hay guyz, I just changed SA to a 3-point scale, advances cost 3 points now and also you all get a Fate Point!

--Gdaze -- Japan had a lot of smuggling as well as China. During the Tokugawa you had people smuggling guns, weapons, bibles, and hordes of other goodies! Might take a look at that.

--Edmiao 12:14, 6 August 2007 (MST)i want to be the dread pirate Roberts

--Dieter the Bold 14:08, 6 August 2007 (MST) So, I'll definitely be available this Friday, and I want to know where lie our scruples? Completely lost, well-kept, misplaced but sometimes found? Do we want to specialize in anything? What are our goals?

--Edmiao 16:48, 6 August 2007 (MST) I would really like to link my character as a lost soul found by one of the other characters or their families. does anyone care? Gabe was not interested, Deiter was no comment. Matt, do you know if Ben's character have room for this kind of link with Elrin?

Regarding morals, no one is decisive. With Gemini: I advocated for archeo and everyone else was lukewarm but had no other real strong desires so we went with archeo. and no one but me made an archeo character and thusly our group's disunity. With that caveat, I will say we have well kept scruples regarding everything except the laws regarding taxation. We import books and spices and jewels and all the above "licit goods" and have never dabbled into the "illicit goods". We have been offered some illicit goods in the past and turned down the offer despite serious compensation offered. We've never killed or injured anyone for greed. We have fought officers of the law while trying to evade them when we got busted once and got away. Our favorite category of things to sell is books; we have an extensive network of contacts who want to buy books without the scribe check at customs. We don't necessarily read every book for content, but those who we buy from and sell to we know well and they are not in the market for the heretical or chaos books.

There. Now I've said my bit. My prediction: everyone will agree to it and then go make chaos sorcerers and assassins for hire.

--Matts 17:47, 6 August 2007 (MST)Ben's character definitely has those hooks, though in his absence I can hook you up well enough. I'll email you about that.

Now, as for your goods: I'm happy to set you all up in the way you've described, but what I'm concerned about is this: you've basically stated that under limited-to-no pressure, you basically just want to dodge import duties.

I want you all to think about what happens when the going gets tough, because the going will be tough from the get-go. What if you don't have any work and someone you don't know wants a book smuggled and can't or won't or isn't trustworthy enough to vouchsafe its non-heretical nature? What I want you to think about is *why* your characters do business in the way they do, so, following ed's example, why you don't deal in illicit goods when smuggling's a crime either way.

I really want to define the groups motivations not in absolutes ("we don't do anything really heinous") and more in terms of preference ("we would rather not do anything really heinous").

I am going to make you compromise your character's morals; the only question is to what degree are you willing to fight for them?

--207.200.116.70 18:02, 6 August 2007 (MST)Ben here: Ed, my character doesn't have an opening to have met one of the characters as a child or through his family. In the last 2-5 years, it would certainly be very possible, since my character has a passion for seeking out contacts/allies/followers etc. He'd definitely take in/make use of something as unique as a foundling "not elf": given that he's a mage, he might even have some inkling of what that was, although probably only vaguely. If that works well enough for you, then we can work out the details when I get back. My character has been working as an underground type, possibly even a smuggler the whole time, for the last couple of years (during which he could have "found" Elrin). Just a note on elves in Warhammer: they age super slowly, so it's not like a "teenage" elf would be an "adult" elf within the course of a human lifetime, unless I'm mistaken.

--Dieter the Bold 20:32, 6 August 2007 (MST) Bogoro the Carver would like to politely disagree with Elrin. We have ill-defined scruples, primarily involving not being cruel and staying away from chaos-tainted objects. I'm all for moving the illicit and doing what we have to. We don't kick old ladies down into the mud, we don't knife people just for the hell of it, we don't make peoples' lives worse if we can help it, but we will put forth a little muscle to make things go our way if we have to. And as for Gemini, I wanted S&R, which is why we spent 5 pts. on the tug adapter, but everyone always bitched about jumping around doing that.

--Gdaze 22:51, 6 August 2007 (MST) I'm gonna go with Dieter here. I'm really not looking to play people who have never even killed or injured for greed. Basically I'm smuggling for cash, not so some old man can read some book on ancient gods (some what in character!). And yes I'm okay with drug running and such. Oh, and I'm very interested in smuggling posions and jewels.

As for your hook Ed, your welcome to have met my guy, but he has run for a circus for pretty much the entire first part of his life.

--Matts 22:58, 6 August 2007 (MST)So at the start of the prologue, then, Dementis is just out of the circus, and looking for work in Kreutzhofen?

--Edmiao 08:45, 7 August 2007 (MST) then i'd like to propose this: we have tried to keep it with the less toxic items and have made a good living thereby. However, from time to time the pay has been exceedingly good and/or we were down on our luck and took some really nasty jobs. These went swimingly the first two times. The third time it was a book from an untrustworthy source, but the cashola was stupendous. we ran the item but were ambushed by witch hunters and two of our number were killed and we lost the item and had to refund the payment and maybe the guy still has it out for us. We later ran other items without incident three more times that we deemed very dangerous. However, then next time we were running poisons and Frank accidentally got exposed to some and now he's a vegetable living with his parents who spoon feed him three times a day and wipe his bottom for him when he craps his pants.

And Ben, that sounds good, we'll have met in the last few years. Elrin is like 50 years old, which is young for a "not elf". we'll work out the details when you return. enjoy your trip!

And Deiter, with the SnR bit, clearly further example of disunity and lack of focus. i wanted archeo, you wanted SnR, matt wanted criminal empire or something.

--Gdaze-- Sure can be, my character is interested in learning many new skills and meeting new people. I'll email you his history when I get home tonight and perhaps that can give you something to work with. His overall goal is pretty simple, he wants money, mo'money money, MO!

How common are not-elfs and not-dwarfs?

--Dieter the Bold 09:28, 7 August 2007 (MST) I'm down with Ed's version, except with less of an avoidance of illicit goods. I'm thinking more we've taken whatever we thought was worth the cost/risk. Maybe we've gotten burned a time or two, maybe we've gotten lucky so far. It's not too important on that count, but I don't want to start out as a shrinking violet. Avoiding jobs 'cause of past (prologue) mistakes. Borogro is more than happy to take licit goods that are simply avoiding tariffs so long as it's worth it, and not just shipping fish. His goals aren't money in itself, he wants comfort and power for himself and his friends. Not power over life and death kinda' thing, just freedom from fear, hunger, pain, etc.

--Matts 10:08, 7 August 2007 (MST)Not-elves and not-dwarves are uncommon enough that those who meet them figure they're probably just physically odd humans, unless they hear of their history or people. However, even amongst the non-human races, their concept of history, of their own people, isn't defined by them being "not human" or "elf" or whatever; it's defined by the aspects of life important to those people. A 'not-elf' would probably describe himself as a "Person of the Forest", while a 'not-dwarf' would describe themself as one of 'they who guard the deep places' or something similarly obtuse.

--Gdaze 11:38, 7 August 2007 (MST) I'mz a with-a Dieter. I don't really care too much about what the goods are, gotta take work as it shows up. Freemdom from fear, hunger and pain CAN come from money, ya know doc? Fenced jewels I'm totally down with by the way. I'd perfer not to do slaves just because they are annoying to keep. Livestock too, although my character COULD be really good at dealing with live stock. Yay we just had a power surge and my computer restarted.

Matt, can I say there was a non-dwarf in my circus group? Anyone else wanna come from the Floating World (circus)?

--Matts 12:12, 7 August 2007 (MST)Sure, there can have been a not-dwarf in your circus group - the amazing shortsman or whatever.

--Edmiao 12:59, 7 August 2007 (MST) all sound fine by me. Elrin will actually have a fairly warped sense of morality. as you will see

--Edmiao 16:06, 7 August 2007 (MST) with all the closed borders and chaos, smuggling business was probably pretty good over the last 3-4 years, yes?

--Dieter the Bold 16:10, 7 August 2007 (MST) Now that we've established general morality outlines, lets brainstorm some limits/trends/thoughts for Matt to work with and get a good group goal. I'm fine if we do money, or power, or something like that, so long as we're all very clear on what each of us is thinking in that regard. I could totally see everyone still running in 10,000 different directions pursuing money and power and getting us into the same trouble as Gemini.

--Gdaze -- Yo Matt, what is your email account you can use at work?

--Matts 09:38, 8 August 2007 (MST)Email me at eldunce@gmail.com.

As for smuggling, yes it's been pretty good - people were willing to pay extremely high prices for "uncontaminated" food, and there were certainly foreign interests willing to part desperate Reiklanders with their money.

There was also a near-universal lack of necessities such as medicine, tools, etc, and for those willing to brave the closed borders, much good (and some money) was had running the Tilean passes.

--Gdaze -- Hmm, shall we be smugglers from and into Britonia?

--Matts 10:05, 8 August 2007 (MST)Wissenland, where the prologue's starting, has overland routes to Tilea and the Border Princes region; Brettonian smuggling would be done more in Reikland or middenland, either through Axe Bite Pass or the Grey Mountains Pass, or up around the mountains through Courrone, which is the most likely route since significant rebel military elements are blockading the passes.

In any case, you can have done smuggling in and out of Brettonia, but most of the stuff I've got lined up relates to Wissenland smuggling.

--Edmiao 10:50, 8 August 2007 (MST) I say we stick to one locale, wissenland sounds fine by me. smugglers rely on their knowledge of where to get things, safe secret transport routes and who to sell to. this mean a kind of general in depth knowledge of a smaller area. going out of your knowledge zone would be very risky because of the unknown patrol routes, etc.

--Edmiao 12:01, 13 August 2007 (MST) Matt explained the spiritual advance thing better last friday. My current understanding is that it is a way for him to hook into characters and to try to hook the characters together. It explicitly states what kind of things the character is interested in, which allows the GM to plan events and plotlines that are of interest to the character. I'm behind this idea 100% now.

I'm also fine with 1 or 0 fate points, with most replaced by the SA specific rerolls. would also encourage the ability to use SA points as spritual advance specific gemini-esque storytelling points.

I'm 100% against using SA as a mechanism to get xp, and also against bonus xp in general.

--Gdaze 14:39, 13 August 2007 (MST) I don't like the 1 or 0 fate points. I would perfer at least 2, or give humans one more then non-humans. There needs to be some benefit to play a human.

I'm okay with use SA for rerolls but I still don't think it is that great of a system for a group that already roleplays well. Guess I don't get how you can just switch it around, also seems like a lot of work to do just so you can get a few re-rolls.

Yeah, I don't think it should be used as EXP.

--Matts 14:43, 13 August 2007 (MST)Just so you know, I'm not going to be tweaking the system as I have it planned until we try it out; if it doesn't work I'll tweak it. Feel free to discuss to your heart's content, but don't expect me to be sweating things until we actually test the system out.

--Gdaze -- Well MAYBE I'm BORED at work.

--Matts 15:31, 13 August 2007 (MST)I'm not saying don't talk, cause lord knows I will. I'm just saying that if you're expecting results you may have to switch, uh, products.

--Matts 12:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)To throw some fuel on the fire about XP:

There's really two axes for reward in an RPG like this: temporal rewards within the game (money, power, gear, etc) and experience. Personally, I think rewards should be for characters who contribute to the story and contribute to a fun session, because those are the things I personally want at my gaming sessions.

The tricky bit is that there's two things such an approach can lead to and that I want to avoid: 1) people angry because they feel left behind or indirectly punished if they don't get the reward, and 2) people gunning only for the reward at the exclusion of all else.

I like to think the SA system does a decent job of tying a gamist approach (the desire to win/advance) with a narrativist approach (because in order to win/advance you need to progress along a narrative arc). Maybe it's not the best solution, but I'm not scrapping it and going back to WFRP's Fate points and 100 xp/session because that leaves the issue totally unadressed. Whatever mechanic replaces SA (if any) needs to have a component that requires story participation.

--Gdaze 12:41, 14 August 2007 (MST) FIRE!

I don't mind bonus exp, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. RPing isn't just about telling a story, it is about having FUN telling that story. Nobody wants to see their character fall behind, and in a game like this it will become very apparent. Also if you think rewards should only go to players who contribute to the story and to a fun session it is too easy to play favorites. What if someone plays a silent type warrior who doesn't help in the decision making process but kicks butt when it is time for that? Do you give him extra exp cause "he kicked a lot of ass"?

I actually see the SA system as having a huge flaw because everyone can take any goal, at any time, and will switch often to maximize exp. Not saying we would, but if abuse is possible, then it just makes extra work. The way the exp system is set up now is quite nice, even, and not prone to abuse.

Another example... We are going to be talking a lot. Ed's character really isn't much of a talker, in fact I hope we keep him away from negotiations for the most part. My guy is a huge talker and is going to dominate these kinds of areas. Should I get more exp then him? I don't think so.

What it comes down to is this. Instead of having to worry about if I'm going to get an advance or not, I'd rather concentrate on playing and having fun not worrying about if I'm filling out my SA gauge. I mean the GM has so many things to keep track of, putting this task to the players plus you just seems like way too much work without a whole lot of benefit. I mean look how good we did last time with no SA.

Uneven distribution of exp is going to cause jealously among players, which is going to lead to un-happy players. I don’t’ mind small bonuses like last time… maybe a 25-30 depending on what you do (none of that 24 stuff… that is just mean). Or give a bonus if you fill out your SA meter (like +25 or summin’).

--Matts 14:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)So I have to approve changes made to your SA; it'll be pretty quickly apparent if someone is trying to game the system.

What the SA do is allow YOU to define the story that you'd have fun telling, and advance according to that. I don't like a "good roleplaying" bonus because that's a very subjective measure. You're totally right that there's more to good roleplaying than talking. With SA you define what "good roleplaying" means to your character.

--Edmiao 14:55, 14 August 2007 (MST) ditto gabe's comments completely.

--Matts 15:14, 14 August 2007 (MST)XP right now is basically just an indication of how long we've been playing the game - it has no connection to how the game actually played out, and gives no incentive to try to make your character do interesting or dramatic or appropriate things. It implies no narrative, history, or anything else - it means that the mechanic of advancement, which is probably the biggest selling point of WFRP, is totally divorced from actual play. To me, that makes it at best superfluous and at worst a lethal distraction. I want people to be talking at least as much about the cool things that happened or will happen in the game as they do about how their next few advances are going to totally uber them out.

--Gdaze 15:21, 14 August 2007 (MST) Ahem *cleans off cell phone* Well, it seems your SA goal "Be a little bitch" has just been maxed out.

Gotta throw that in cause it is a forum dicussion. E WANK!

All that aside, I believe the SA is subject to subjectivity as well. I understand that SA is suppose to allow us to control the story but in the end it only gives us a very limited control of it... as it should be, but didn't fate points do this before? Take for example Graccus. Many times when Nat, or others, have played him they burn points on chasing tail. I would say this IS controling the story because you yield results in the areas you want to. Fate points work just like this, they allow you to change failures, hopefully, in areas you want to. All the SA system does is somewhat force you to state lofty ideals and morals that you can change on a whim. You can sure as heck bet that if I did have fate points I'd be spending them on perform re-rolls.

If you can't give it out as a bonus then don't. Or a neat way might be give the characters some sort of short term goal worth XX exp. Like I want to perform infront of a large group and wow them... if I end up doing that I get a bonus 25 exp. Otherwise I like the standard 100 xp per session with soemw ay of everything getting a bonus every now and then.

And yes, we do get exp regardless, but what seasson hasn't gone by with us doing nothing in WHF? We do what we want because we progress the story. If we only do things for exp, then we are only doing things for numbers and not the story. I don't really get the last part of you post though... about how you want people to talk about their advances. I mean we are already doing that.

One more thing, how are the non-human races being balanced out? Since the amount of fate points was one of these factors.

--Matts 15:32, 14 August 2007 (MST)I said I want people to talk about what happened more than they talk about their advances.

This isn't meant to railroad you, it's meant as a way to tie character advancement in with the story so that it actually means something beyond the numbers. I was pretty explicitly saying I don't like the 100xp per session. SA don't need to be lofty, but they define a goal, and progress to or completion of that goal is a story, and that's the whole point.

As for balance, the other races have lower caps on their SA, that's it.

--Gdaze But we do talk about the story quite a bit. I guess your trying to say its like "Remember when I nailed that violin drift and got the +5%?" something like that then? I dunno, its kinda hard to stop talking about advances in any way really, that is a charm of the system. I guess there could be a better way to dish out exp, I just don't like the idea of it being to whomever gets the most "time" during the seasson. And I really, really, really don't want to argue for why I should get exp... "This totally goes with my SA!"

So do non-humans still have to fill out all five to get exp? Are we even gonna use this system for exp?

As a side note, in the adventure supplement I got there is a priest of that spear and shield goddess who for 25g, will train you for two weeks and you get an advance as long as it is along the combat line. INSANE!

--Edmiao 16:53, 14 August 2007 (MST) Really, do you want me to spend time thinking and talking about how I can advance the story line in any way appropriate? And thusly to try to make a good story? Because the SA linked to XP means that I will mostly think about how can I finagle my XP out of this session...let's see I can only do three things, so I'll just have to do them all night long. So we are in a diplomatic situation and my SA says Sneaky, Steals stuff, and Picks nose. So none of those apply so I guess I'll just meander off and do something sneaky. It does'nt fit into the plot, it doesn't make sense, but i needs to get my XP, so i sneak off and steal stuff for no apparent reason. Is that useful? I think it will be entertaining but from a comic and stupid standpoint.

I also agree with Gabe about GM favoritism and dominating personalities. I'll say that Matt was overly infatuated with Anjou last game. I thought his antics were silly and that there was no way that wine merchants were such stupid fucks as to get hoodwinked by a teenager because he had a french accent. But Matt liked it and it was funny and comical, so whatever. Under SA, Ben gets extra XP for amusing the GM (which was probably true last time also). Ben has a strong and outgoing personality, so he also tends to get a decent amount of action in while Deiter likes to sit back and tries to roleplay the characters more intimately, which means holding his tongue if he is not present. Under the SA linked XP system, over time Ben gets 10 more advances than Deiter and if I were Deiter, i would resent that badly.

I would also like to reiterate my previous argument that we want to encourage everyone to show up. Linking XP to attendance makes the game less fun for low attendees. Do you ever want Nate to come back to the group? I enjoy the occasional Nate appearances. Shall we insist that he play a level one character while we are all in advanced classes? That's silly in my book.

As I have said before, these criticisms are relevant to games where the majority of character points come from XP and not important in games where XP is a minor aspect of the character's traits.

--Matts 17:26, 14 August 2007 (MST)I don't think I dealt with Anjou that appropriately, and I'm determined to make more of an effort at gm fundamentals, ie, making sure everyone has equal time, and trying to keep people together rather than off on their own ditties.

I'm not trying to slow down your advancement. I'm not trying (in fact am determined to avoid) playing favorites. I'm not saying that if you don't attend you'll be heavily penalized or that I won't introduce catch-up mechanisms. If a player falls behind it's at least partly (probably mostly) my fault for not drawing them into the game. It's still a two-way street though: if I'm making the effort to get everyone involved, and the game still turns into it's-not-my-turn-i'll-read-some-comics, then I'm not gonna lose sleep over a slower rate of advancement. It's my responsibility to make sure everyone gets the same number of shots at SA as everyone else, and I'll tell you right now, you can talk my ear off but unless it's something super-fantastic like sacrificing your character for NPC Bob, if you're outstripping everyone else, you're not getting more shots at SA.

I'm not interested in running Career Advance Fantasy Roleplay. I like the system. I like the way career advancement works. But if ultimately everyone's individual takeaway from the game is "I got to Champion", then I'll be really crushed. Either XP fits integrally into play and how we make decisions and how the game flows, or it's a distraction.

--Gdaze 08:49, 15 August 2007 (MST) You know though, Robert would have totally been filling out his SA meter, haha! Lets see... hates self, loose self in fighting, take out anger on others, classic. Actually come to think of it Robert is one of my favorite characters besides Sarah. Although I'm really liking my current.

Anyway, we know you aren't trying to slow down the advancement, but have some faith in us. We aren't all trying to make it to champion. We most likely aren't even going to play that long... Although I really WOULD like to stick with this for awhile. Anyway, we aren't just going to think "Wow I got to Champion". Did we think that last time? No, people talked just as much about what their characters did then the advancments. But trying to phase out the goal of reaching a career altogether is kinda crazy. The career advance is a part of the game, and one we all like, I think so anyway. We will take away a lot more then "I reach High Wizard" or something like that.

I would say the SA method for EXP does not fit integrally into the system. If anything I think it will be quite a distraction, like the examples Ed put in. Although like you said you want to give all the characters changes to fill out their SA, that seems a bit much to me. Its like oh... another example to be sneaky! Granted we should have chances to do what we are good at but I think the players... ah forget that I don't know where I'm going with that.

G'ah drank a No fear and had a kripsy crap donut at work... I'm so over sugered.

I mean we are willing to give the SA system a try, but at the same time what the characters want from the game is fairly important too. I like to know that I can get exp for just playing instead of having a bunch of odd disjointed goals.

--Gdaze 11:18, 17 August 2007 (MST) So since Fridays go SO fracking slow, I'm gonna write a quick overview of my quick glance at the Skaven book I got for WHFRP.

It is actually a pretty neat book although it would of had a lot more information. Also the way the information is laid out is sometimes very odd... for example putting in the mutation charts for their warpstone experiments on monsters AFTER the section on Skaven career advancements. Also it has way too many of the little blurps from random citizens. Its like we get it... people don't think they exist but some do.

The thing that really annoies me is that some of the rules are not fleshed out at all. Like the Warpstone gattling cannon... it just says it can fire all of its shots at once. Any rules for how to handle that? Like what does spraying an area do? Nope. Just that it has 10 rounds and takes one full round to reload. Out of all the new weapons I think it actually has one of the shortest sections...

It becomes even more vauge when dealing with warpstone.

It does have some invention rules for making gadets which I really think they should have made aviable in other books for non-skaven inventions, to make the engeneeir career seem more like one.

I do like a lot of the weapons in the book for the skaven though, although odd their are no new poisons it seems. Also the section on Skaven carrers is kinda neat if someone wanted to play a Skaven adventure or flesh out his leet enemies a bit more.

--Dieter the Bold 23:44, 17 August 2007 (MST) So, with my starting Talents and Free Advance, the 1200 XP allows me to entirely fill out Barger-Surgeon, plus on advance to move into Physician. So, can I start with 4 Healing Draughts (I start with Trade (Apothecary)) and Trade Tools (Medical Instruments), so I can actually be a Physician when starting the game? Oh, and the rest of the guys want to know if it costs 100 XP to move from one career to another, or if it's free if you fill out the previous career? I'm pretty sure everyone has enough to just move to their second career either way. Also, what is the material cost of brewing healing draughts?

--Gdaze 02:40, 19 August 2007 (MST) I'm actually not into my next career just yet. Mostly cause I want to pick up a few extra talents and skills. Like sleight of hand and ride. So we are suppose to have 13 advances total right, counting our free? We just wanted to make sure of that... WE THE PEOPLE! I can't believe I missed that post about those advances...

--12.110.83.75 09:45, 21 August 2007 (MST)Yeah, the old house rule that if you fill out your career you can move into an exit free is still in effect. HOWEVER, you need to explain to me and the story how that happened; you didn't just flip a switch and become a physician - you studied for months under somebody, right? Who is that person, etc.

Actual play should have enough gaps so that if such mentor figures aren't available through the story, you should be able to make one up without too much difficulty.

So yes, dieter, you would be able to be a Physician.