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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 12:01, 13 August 2007 (MST) Matt explained the spiritual advance thing better last friday. My current understanding is that it is a way for him to hook into characters and to try to hook the characters together. It explicitly states what kind of things the character is interested in, which allows the GM to plan events and plotlines that are of interest to the character. I'm behind this idea 100% now.
| + | ===Taking Stock=== |
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| − | I'm also fine with 1 or 0 fate points, with most replaced by the SA specific rerolls. would also encourage the ability to use SA points as spritual advance specific gemini-esque storytelling points. | + | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 12:35, 25 October 2007 (MST)How's the game going for you guys? Likes/dislikes? I'm opening up the can of worms here, I know, but have at it! |
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| − | I'm 100% against using SA as a mechanism to get xp, and also against bonus xp in general.
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] 14:39, 13 August 2007 (MST) I don't like the 1 or 0 fate points. I would perfer at least 2, or give humans one more then non-humans. There needs to be some benefit to play a human. | + | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]]-- |
| | + | Overall, yes I'm enjoying it. However, the apperance of the pillar disheartens me. Maybe it is only me, but that thing can fucking rot for all I care. I wanted to be done with that oen and didn't really want some save the empire adventure, we already messed up saving the empire. Now, I'm not saying that is WHAT the pillar is, but none the less I think having to retrace all our steps and collecting the pillars would be a pain. |
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| − | I'm okay with use SA for rerolls but I still don't think it is that great of a system for a group that already roleplays well. Guess I don't get how you can just switch it around, also seems like a lot of work to do just so you can get a few re-rolls.
| + | Spells: Please note this isn't aimed directly at you Ben, but spells. We were told that spells would be even less common now then they were, or we wouldn't see as much use of them. The fact that we have never had to make detect rolls to see spells being cast is kinda odd, for me that is. But its been that way, so lets just keep it. |
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| − | Yeah, I don't think it should be used as EXP.
| + | I like the idea of building a crimnal or whatever empire, but this character was built FOR that. If we start doing a bunch of occult stuff again I'm just gonna end up on the fench again not knowing about anything and just playing my violin. Shit can hit the fan, but it should be shit everyone can help clean up. |
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 14:43, 13 August 2007 (MST)Just so you know, I'm not going to be tweaking the system as I have it planned until we try it out; if it doesn't work I'll tweak it. Feel free to discuss to your heart's content, but don't expect me to be sweating things until we actually test the system out.
| + | NOW, most all of this is based on the very thin assumption that we are going to be doing the pillar stuff again. |
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] -- Well MAYBE I'm BORED at work.
| + | I am enjoying the small town we are part of. I would have liked us to been able to strong arm a bit more. For being a cut throat place, everyone is still very high class crime like. By this I mean there have not been many fights, at all. Or killings even. |
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 15:31, 13 August 2007 (MST)I'm not saying don't talk, cause lord knows I will. I'm just saying that if you're [http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/otcdrugprofiles/drugs/fgotc192.shtml expecting results] you may have to switch, uh, products.
| + | Killing the cult was GREAT. I loved that, no thinking about it, cult = evil = kill. I would love to have an enemy we could unite against, but not one we must constantly run from. Plotting to take out a huge politcal figure can be quite fun. |
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 12:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)To throw some fuel on the fire about XP:
| + | Biggest concern: Tons of occult stuff show up when this was suppose to be about smuggling. Also I'm a little unsure as to what occult things one might know, and what they wouldn't, I would love to see a list clairfing this. Use of fate points to affect the story (I believe fate points are to affect you, not the world) |
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| − | There's really two axes for reward in an RPG like this: temporal rewards within the game (money, power, gear, etc) and experience. Personally, I think rewards should be for characters who contribute to the story and contribute to a fun session, because those are the things I personally want at my gaming sessions.
| + | Biggest likes: I like all the characters. Characters work fairly well although secrets still abound (don't like that), Dwarf Ruins! A++++++++++! |
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| − | The tricky bit is that there's two things such an approach can lead to and that I want to avoid: 1) people angry because they feel left behind or indirectly punished if they don't get the reward, and 2) people gunning only for the reward at the exclusion of all else.
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| − | I like to think the SA system does a decent job of tying a gamist approach (the desire to win/advance) with a narrativist approach (because in order to win/advance you need to progress along a narrative arc). Maybe it's not the best solution, but I'm not scrapping it and going back to WFRP's Fate points and 100 xp/session because that leaves the issue totally unadressed. Whatever mechanic replaces SA (if any) needs to have a component that requires story participation. | + | BEN: I like the game, so far, in its entirety |
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] 12:41, 14 August 2007 (MST) FIRE! | + | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 08:47, 26 October 2007 (MST) perhaps it is because i missed two sessions, but i have no excitement for the game. i mean, it's not bad it's ok, I just don't have a lot of enthusiasm for it. Maybe it's because i'm bored of my character already, which probably arose from the bad start i got with him and that huge debate. there's your worms. |
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| − | I don't mind bonus exp, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. RPing isn't just about telling a story, it is about having FUN telling that story. Nobody wants to see their character fall behind, and in a game like this it will become very apparent. Also if you think rewards should only go to players who contribute to the story and to a fun session it is too easy to play favorites. What if someone plays a silent type warrior who doesn't help in the decision making process but kicks butt when it is time for that? Do you give him extra exp cause "he kicked a lot of ass"?
| + | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]]-- You guys suck. I write all that and you write little blurbs! Of course clearly my writing was me trying to get all my ideas into a some what understandable... thing... of... words... Also I was slacking off at work. |
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| − | I actually see the SA system as having a huge flaw because everyone can take any goal, at any time, and will switch often to maximize exp. Not saying we would, but if abuse is possible, then it just makes extra work. The way the exp system is set up now is quite nice, even, and not prone to abuse. | + | To go along with what Ed is saying, I feel kinda the same way. I enjoy playing my character, but the excitement is kinda dwindling.I think Elrin would be fine as he is, but don't lose the insanity! Actually over all I enjoy playing my character as being a trickster provides loads of fun. And I would like to personally thank Ed for edging me towards ventriloquism. That combined with mimic and acting will also keep my character fun. |
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| − | Another example... We are going to be talking a lot. Ed's character really isn't much of a talker, in fact I hope we keep him away from negotiations for the most part. My guy is a huge talker and is going to dominate these kinds of areas. Should I get more exp then him? I don't think so.
| + | So yeah, I'm having fun, but at the same time excitement isn't quite as high. |
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| − | What it comes down to is this. Instead of having to worry about if I'm going to get an advance or not, I'd rather concentrate on playing and having fun not worrying about if I'm filling out my SA gauge. I mean the GM has so many things to keep track of, putting this task to the players plus you just seems like way too much work without a whole lot of benefit. I mean look how good we did last time with no SA.
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| − | Uneven distribution of exp is going to cause jealously among players, which is going to lead to un-happy players. I don’t’ mind small bonuses like last time… maybe a 25-30 depending on what you do (none of that 24 stuff… that is just mean). Or give a bonus if you fill out your SA meter (like +25 or summin’).
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 14:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)So I have to approve changes made to your SA; it'll be pretty quickly apparent if someone is trying to game the system.
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| − | What the SA do is allow YOU to define the story that you'd have fun telling, and advance according to that. I don't like a "good roleplaying" bonus because that's a very subjective measure. You're totally right that there's more to good roleplaying than talking. With SA you define what "good roleplaying" means to your character.
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 14:55, 14 August 2007 (MST) ditto gabe's comments completely.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 15:14, 14 August 2007 (MST)XP right now is basically just an indication of how long we've been playing the game - it has no connection to how the game actually played out, and gives no incentive to try to make your character do interesting or dramatic or appropriate things. It implies no narrative, history, or anything else - it means that the mechanic of advancement, which is probably the biggest selling point of WFRP, is totally divorced from actual play. To me, that makes it at best superfluous and at worst a lethal distraction. I want people to be talking at least as much about the cool things that happened or will happen in the game as they do about how their next few advances are going to totally uber them out.
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] 15:21, 14 August 2007 (MST) Ahem *cleans off cell phone* Well, it seems your SA goal "Be a little bitch" has just been maxed out.
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| − | Gotta throw that in cause it is a forum dicussion. E WANK!
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| − | All that aside, I believe the SA is subject to subjectivity as well. I understand that SA is suppose to allow us to control the story but in the end it only gives us a very limited control of it... as it should be, but didn't fate points do this before? Take for example Graccus. Many times when Nat, or others, have played him they burn points on chasing tail. I would say this IS controling the story because you yield results in the areas you want to. Fate points work just like this, they allow you to change failures, hopefully, in areas you want to. All the SA system does is somewhat force you to state lofty ideals and morals that you can change on a whim. You can sure as heck bet that if I did have fate points I'd be spending them on perform re-rolls.
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| − | If you can't give it out as a bonus then don't. Or a neat way might be give the characters some sort of short term goal worth XX exp. Like I want to perform infront of a large group and wow them... if I end up doing that I get a bonus 25 exp. Otherwise I like the standard 100 xp per session with soemw ay of everything getting a bonus every now and then.
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| − | And yes, we do get exp regardless, but what seasson hasn't gone by with us doing nothing in WHF? We do what we want because we progress the story. If we only do things for exp, then we are only doing things for numbers and not the story. I don't really get the last part of you post though... about how you want people to talk about their advances. I mean we are already doing that.
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| − | One more thing, how are the non-human races being balanced out? Since the amount of fate points was one of these factors.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 15:32, 14 August 2007 (MST)I said I want people to talk about what happened more than they talk about their advances.
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| − | This isn't meant to railroad you, it's meant as a way to tie character advancement in with the story so that it actually means something beyond the numbers. I was pretty explicitly saying I don't like the 100xp per session. SA don't need to be lofty, but they define a goal, and progress to or completion of that goal is a story, and that's the whole point.
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| − | As for balance, the other races have lower caps on their SA, that's it.
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] But we do talk about the story quite a bit. I guess your trying to say its like "Remember when I nailed that violin drift and got the +5%?" something like that then? I dunno, its kinda hard to stop talking about advances in any way really, that is a charm of the system. I guess there could be a better way to dish out exp, I just don't like the idea of it being to whomever gets the most "time" during the seasson. And I really, really, really don't want to argue for why I should get exp... "This totally goes with my SA!"
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| − | So do non-humans still have to fill out all five to get exp? Are we even gonna use this system for exp?
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| − | As a side note, in the adventure supplement I got there is a priest of that spear and shield goddess who for 25g, will train you for two weeks and you get an advance as long as it is along the combat line. INSANE!
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| − | --[[User:Edmiao|Edmiao]] 16:53, 14 August 2007 (MST) Really, do you want me to spend time thinking and talking about how I can advance the story line in any way appropriate? And thusly to try to make a good story? Because the SA linked to XP means that I will mostly think about how can I finagle my XP out of this session...let's see I can only do three things, so I'll just have to do them all night long. So we are in a diplomatic situation and my SA says Sneaky, Steals stuff, and Picks nose. So none of those apply so I guess I'll just meander off and do something sneaky. It does'nt fit into the plot, it doesn't make sense, but i needs to get my XP, so i sneak off and steal stuff for no apparent reason. Is that useful? I think it will be entertaining but from a comic and stupid standpoint.
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| − | I also agree with Gabe about GM favoritism and dominating personalities. I'll say that Matt was overly infatuated with Anjou last game. I thought his antics were silly and that there was no way that wine merchants were such stupid fucks as to get hoodwinked by a teenager because he had a french accent. But Matt liked it and it was funny and comical, so whatever. Under SA, Ben gets extra XP for amusing the GM (which was probably true last time also). Ben has a strong and outgoing personality, so he also tends to get a decent amount of action in while Deiter likes to sit back and tries to roleplay the characters more intimately, which means holding his tongue if he is not present. Under the SA linked XP system, over time Ben gets 10 more advances than Deiter and if I were Deiter, i would resent that badly.
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| − | I would also like to reiterate my previous argument that we want to encourage everyone to show up. Linking XP to attendance makes the game less fun for low attendees. Do you ever want Nate to come back to the group? I enjoy the occasional Nate appearances. Shall we insist that he play a level one character while we are all in advanced classes? That's silly in my book.
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| − | As I have said before, these criticisms are relevant to games where the majority of character points come from XP and not important in games where XP is a minor aspect of the character's traits.
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| − | --[[User:Matts|Matts]] 17:26, 14 August 2007 (MST)I don't think I dealt with Anjou that appropriately, and I'm determined to make more of an effort at gm fundamentals, ie, making sure everyone has equal time, and trying to keep people together rather than off on their own ditties.
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| − | I'm not trying to slow down your advancement. I'm not trying (in fact am determined to avoid) playing favorites. I'm not saying that if you don't attend you'll be heavily penalized or that I won't introduce catch-up mechanisms. If a player falls behind it's at least partly (probably mostly) my fault for not drawing them into the game. It's still a two-way street though: if I'm '''making the effort''' to get everyone involved, and the game still turns into it's-not-my-turn-i'll-read-some-comics, then I'm not gonna lose sleep over a slower rate of advancement. '''It's my responsibility''' to make sure everyone gets the same number of shots at SA as everyone else, and I'll tell you right now, you can talk my ear off but unless it's something super-fantastic like sacrificing your character for NPC Bob, if you're outstripping everyone else, you're not getting more shots at SA.
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| − | I'm not interested in running Career Advance Fantasy Roleplay. I like the system. I like the way career advancement works. But if ultimately everyone's individual takeaway from the game is "I got to Champion", then I'll be really crushed. Either XP fits integrally into play and how we make decisions and how the game flows, or it's a distraction.
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| − | --[[User:Gdaze|Gdaze]] 08:49, 15 August 2007 (MST) You know though, Robert would have totally been filling out his SA meter, haha! Lets see... hates self, loose self in fighting, take out anger on others, classic. Actually come to think of it Robert is one of my favorite characters besides Sarah. Although I'm really liking my current.
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| − | Anyway, we know you aren't trying to slow down the advancement, but have some faith in us. We aren't all trying to make it to champion. We most likely aren't even going to play that long... Although I really WOULD like to stick with this for awhile. Anyway, we aren't just going to think "Wow I got to Champion". Did we think that last time? No, people talked just as much about what their characters did then the advancments. But trying to phase out the goal of reaching a career altogether is kinda crazy. The career advance is a part of the game, and one we all like, I think so anyway. We will take away a lot more then "I reach High Wizard" or something like that.
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| − | I would say the SA method for EXP does not fit integrally into the system. If anything I think it will be quite a distraction, like the examples Ed put in. Although like you said you want to give all the characters changes to fill out their SA, that seems a bit much to me. Its like oh... another example to be sneaky! Granted we should have chances to do what we are good at but I think the players... ah forget that I don't know where I'm going with that.
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| − | G'ah drank a No fear and had a kripsy crap donut at work... I'm so over sugered.
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| − | I mean we are willing to give the SA system a try, but at the same time what the characters want from the game is fairly important too. I like to know that I can get exp for just playing instead of having a bunch of odd disjointed goals.
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Spells: Please note this isn't aimed directly at you Ben, but spells. We were told that spells would be even less common now then they were, or we wouldn't see as much use of them. The fact that we have never had to make detect rolls to see spells being cast is kinda odd, for me that is. But its been that way, so lets just keep it.
I like the idea of building a crimnal or whatever empire, but this character was built FOR that. If we start doing a bunch of occult stuff again I'm just gonna end up on the fench again not knowing about anything and just playing my violin. Shit can hit the fan, but it should be shit everyone can help clean up.
NOW, most all of this is based on the very thin assumption that we are going to be doing the pillar stuff again.
I am enjoying the small town we are part of. I would have liked us to been able to strong arm a bit more. For being a cut throat place, everyone is still very high class crime like. By this I mean there have not been many fights, at all. Or killings even.
Killing the cult was GREAT. I loved that, no thinking about it, cult = evil = kill. I would love to have an enemy we could unite against, but not one we must constantly run from. Plotting to take out a huge politcal figure can be quite fun.
Biggest concern: Tons of occult stuff show up when this was suppose to be about smuggling. Also I'm a little unsure as to what occult things one might know, and what they wouldn't, I would love to see a list clairfing this. Use of fate points to affect the story (I believe fate points are to affect you, not the world)
Biggest likes: I like all the characters. Characters work fairly well although secrets still abound (don't like that), Dwarf Ruins! A++++++++++!
To go along with what Ed is saying, I feel kinda the same way. I enjoy playing my character, but the excitement is kinda dwindling.I think Elrin would be fine as he is, but don't lose the insanity! Actually over all I enjoy playing my character as being a trickster provides loads of fun. And I would like to personally thank Ed for edging me towards ventriloquism. That combined with mimic and acting will also keep my character fun.
