Talk:WHFRP Reboot
--Edmiao 12:01, 13 August 2007 (MST) Matt explained the spiritual advance thing better last friday. My current understanding is that it is a way for him to hook into characters and to try to hook the characters together. It explicitly states what kind of things the character is interested in, which allows the GM to plan events and plotlines that are of interest to the character. I'm behind this idea 100% now.
I'm also fine with 1 or 0 fate points, with most replaced by the SA specific rerolls. would also encourage the ability to use SA points as spritual advance specific gemini-esque storytelling points.
I'm 100% against using SA as a mechanism to get xp, and also against bonus xp in general.
--Gdaze 14:39, 13 August 2007 (MST) I don't like the 1 or 0 fate points. I would perfer at least 2, or give humans one more then non-humans. There needs to be some benefit to play a human.
I'm okay with use SA for rerolls but I still don't think it is that great of a system for a group that already roleplays well. Guess I don't get how you can just switch it around, also seems like a lot of work to do just so you can get a few re-rolls.
Yeah, I don't think it should be used as EXP.
--Matts 14:43, 13 August 2007 (MST)Just so you know, I'm not going to be tweaking the system as I have it planned until we try it out; if it doesn't work I'll tweak it. Feel free to discuss to your heart's content, but don't expect me to be sweating things until we actually test the system out.
--Gdaze -- Well MAYBE I'm BORED at work.
--Matts 15:31, 13 August 2007 (MST)I'm not saying don't talk, cause lord knows I will. I'm just saying that if you're expecting results you may have to switch, uh, products.
--Matts 12:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)To throw some fuel on the fire about XP:
There's really two axes for reward in an RPG like this: temporal rewards within the game (money, power, gear, etc) and experience. Personally, I think rewards should be for characters who contribute to the story and contribute to a fun session, because those are the things I personally want at my gaming sessions.
The tricky bit is that there's two things such an approach can lead to and that I want to avoid: 1) people angry because they feel left behind or indirectly punished if they don't get the reward, and 2) people gunning only for the reward at the exclusion of all else.
I like to think the SA system does a decent job of tying a gamist approach (the desire to win/advance) with a narrativist approach (because in order to win/advance you need to progress along a narrative arc). Maybe it's not the best solution, but I'm not scrapping it and going back to WFRP's Fate points and 100 xp/session because that leaves the issue totally unadressed. Whatever mechanic replaces SA (if any) needs to have a component that requires story participation.
--Gdaze 12:41, 14 August 2007 (MST) FIRE!
I don't mind bonus exp, as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. RPing isn't just about telling a story, it is about having FUN telling that story. Nobody wants to see their character fall behind, and in a game like this it will become very apparent. Also if you think rewards should only go to players who contribute to the story and to a fun session it is too easy to play favorites. What if someone plays a silent type warrior who doesn't help in the decision making process but kicks butt when it is time for that? Do you give him extra exp cause "he kicked a lot of ass"?
I actually see the SA system as having a huge flaw because everyone can take any goal, at any time, and will switch often to maximize exp. Not saying we would, but if abuse is possible, then it just makes extra work. The way the exp system is set up now is quite nice, even, and not prone to abuse.
Another example... We are going to be talking a lot. Ed's character really isn't much of a talker, in fact I hope we keep him away from negotiations for the most part. My guy is a huge talker and is going to dominate these kinds of areas. Should I get more exp then him? I don't think so.
What it comes down to is this. Instead of having to worry about if I'm going to get an advance or not, I'd rather concentrate on playing and having fun not worrying about if I'm filling out my SA gauge. I mean the GM has so many things to keep track of, putting this task to the players plus you just seems like way too much work without a whole lot of benefit. I mean look how good we did last time with no SA.
Uneven distribution of exp is going to cause jealously among players, which is going to lead to un-happy players. I don’t’ mind small bonuses like last time… maybe a 25-30 depending on what you do (none of that 24 stuff… that is just mean). Or give a bonus if you fill out your SA meter (like +25 or summin’).
--Matts 14:16, 14 August 2007 (MST)So I have to approve changes made to your SA; it'll be pretty quickly apparent if someone is trying to game the system.
What the SA do is allow YOU to define the story that you'd have fun telling, and advance according to that. I don't like a "good roleplaying" bonus because that's a very subjective measure. You're totally right that there's more to good roleplaying than talking. With SA you define what "good roleplaying" means to your character.
--Edmiao 14:55, 14 August 2007 (MST) ditto gabe's comments completely.
--Matts 15:14, 14 August 2007 (MST)XP right now is basically just an indication of how long we've been playing the game - it has no connection to how the game actually played out, and gives no incentive to try to make your character do interesting or dramatic or appropriate things. It implies no narrative, history, or anything else - it means that the mechanic of advancement, which is probably the biggest selling point of WFRP, is totally divorced from actual play. To me, that makes it at best superfluous and at worst a lethal distraction. I want people to be talking at least as much about the cool things that happened or will happen in the game as they do about how their next few advances are going to totally uber them out.
--Gdaze 15:21, 14 August 2007 (MST) Ahem *cleans off cell phone* Well, it seems your SA goal "Be a little bitch" has just been maxed out.
Gotta throw that in cause it is a forum dicussion. E WANK!
All that aside, I believe the SA is subject to subjectivity as well. I understand that SA is suppose to allow us to control the story but in the end it only gives us a very limited control of it... as it should be, but didn't fate points do this before? Take for example Graccus. Many times when Nat, or others, have played him they burn points on chasing tail. I would say this IS controling the story because you yield results in the areas you want to. Fate points work just like this, they allow you to change failures, hopefully, in areas you want to. All the SA system does is somewhat force you to state lofty ideals and morals that you can change on a whim. You can sure as heck bet that if I did have fate points I'd be spending them on perform re-rolls.
If you can't give it out as a bonus then don't. Or a neat way might be give the characters some sort of short term goal worth XX exp. Like I want to perform infront of a large group and wow them... if I end up doing that I get a bonus 25 exp. Otherwise I like the standard 100 xp per session with soemw ay of everything getting a bonus every now and then.
And yes, we do get exp regardless, but what seasson hasn't gone by with us doing nothing in WHF? We do what we want because we progress the story. If we only do things for exp, then we are only doing things for numbers and not the story. I don't really get the last part of you post though... about how you want people to talk about their advances. I mean we are already doing that.
One more thing, how are the non-human races being balanced out? Since the amount of fate points was one of these factors.
--Matts 15:32, 14 August 2007 (MST)I said I want people to talk about what happened more than they talk about their advances.
This isn't meant to railroad you, it's meant as a way to tie character advancement in with the story so that it actually means something beyond the numbers. I was pretty explicitly saying I don't like the 100xp per session. SA don't need to be lofty, but they define a goal, and progress to or completion of that goal is a story, and that's the whole point.
As for balance, the other races have lower caps on their SA, that's it.
